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"Live Cover" as defined by the Jockey Club?

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  • #61
    I'm still puzzled by some of the logic here. First is the notion that regional stallions and their diversity will flourish with AI, but then another notion is presented that AI will eliminate middle and lower level stallions and only the best stallions will be available in the long run. Aren't those two notions contradictory?

    Anyway, this subject has been argued ad nauseum on several occasions here. My view is that the breed has been well served for generations by the live cover rule and I sincerely hope it remains in force for many more. As JessiP mentioned, state bred rules, particularly New York's old breedback requirement, have interfered with tb development, but that is an entirely different issue.

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    • #62
      In case my post was not entirely clear - When I say the middle and lower classes will be culled - I do not mean eliminated completely! I believe that should AI be allowed then each level of stud fee will whittled down until several of the best in each $ slot remain. But I think we will see a sharp decline in the numbers of the lower end stallions simply because the convenience of breeding to Joe Blow down the street will be supplanted by the ability to order up semen from a better stallion instead. There will be less incentive to stand lower end stallions when/if AI allows greater diversity. Of course there will always be exceptions, and there will be individuals using the option of AI to breed to particular stallions who might not be the most fashionable but because of precise pedigree matching and nicking information. Perhaps there is a stallion whose pedigree and physical type perfectly complement my mare - but I am by Pittsburgh, Pa and he is in Cali or Arizona... AI allows me to execute that breeding where I would not have been able to do so with the current live cover rules. So in that respect the gene pool available to me as a breeder will increase. I believe that overall the number of stallions will decrease - and all stallions (incl higher stud fee stallions) will come down a rung in price. Just my speculation..
      Jessi Pizzurro ~~ Pennyroyal Stables
      Racehorses, OTTBs ~~ 330 383 1281
      Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway. -- John Wayne

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      • #63
        Originally posted by On the Farm View Post
        I'm still puzzled by some of the logic here. First is the notion that regional stallions and their diversity will flourish with AI, but then another notion is presented that AI will eliminate middle and lower level stallions and only the best stallions will be available in the long run. Aren't those two notions contradictory?

        Anyway, this subject has been argued ad nauseum on several occasions here. My view is that the breed has been well served for generations by the live cover rule and I sincerely hope it remains in force for many more. As JessiP mentioned, state bred rules, particularly New York's old breedback requirement, have interfered with tb development, but that is an entirely different issue.
        No what will happen is the under performers will be elimininated, most stud fees (probably not those at the top) will come down some, some a lot as horses fees will be required to reflect their actual production rather than the current "fad" although that part will never go away particularly at the high end of the sales market. Good stallions will no longer need to be hustled off to KY to be available to all and mare owners can access any bloodline they want not the ones within affordable driving distance. This will actually bring MORE bloodlines to regional markets. There will ALWAYS be regional markets and people can still breed live cover all they want if they prefer. People can still stand any stallion they want but economics will see that those who are actually in it to make money vs. hobby breeders who just love their stallion regardless of his production will not be sending tons of mares to stallions who do not produce.

        there will be fewer stallions. This is not a bad thing, there are too many stallions now. Most of the bad ones thankfully have small books but they are still producing a lot of racehorses who will never ever earn their keep. And aren't pretty or sound enough to show or event. With ET mares could be MORE represented which would actually increase diversity as all mares are underrepresented vs. stallions in the gene pool and many of these mares are from older or solid but not sale fashion bloodlines. Or turf or distance lines (good for breed to race, not at all desired by sales breeders).


        Here's an example. Say I have a nice mare who will foal and I want to breed her back. The top 3 stallions in FL are Exchange Rate (not nationally Ranked) $10,000, 44% Starters from foals, 27% winners from foals, 3% SWs from foals, Concerto, $7,500, #75th nationally, 69% starters, 55% winners, 6% SWs, and Concorde's Tune, $3,500 (good but his foals are not popular at the sales), 64% starters, 50% winners, 5% SWs (not bad for the money actually), all 3 are Danzig lines. There is also Halo's Image (Halo), ranked #69, stats not available right now and Trippi (End Sweep), #78, his stats aren't coming up either. Figure in shipping up and back, $1,000, plus mare care.

        But what if my mare IS a Danzig or I've already bred to Trippi, Halo's Image, and/or the others. There are a ton of very nice, high priced but totally unproven stallions in FL a race to breed owner is not going to LEAP to get into their book for the money. Also FL is kind of saturated with relatively few (successful) sire lines.

        OR in KY I could get Pleasant Tap (Pleasant Colony) for $15,000, ranked #12 nationally, 70% St, 47% win, and 7% SWs, Royal Academy (Nijinksy), 2nd nationally, $15,000, with 72% starters, 48% winners, 7% stakes winners or Slew City Slew (Seattle Slew), $6,000, #27 nationally (until Lava Man runs again anyway! =) with 79% SWs, 60% winners, and 6% SWs. All of these have gotten "the big horse", none of the FL horses have.

        But figure in 13 hour drive at about $2,000 Cheapest, more for a mare with foal, double or triple the mare care. It adds on a LOT to those fees.

        With AI those shipping and mare care fees are gone and no risk to my newborn foal. AND WAY better stallions for not that much more money but it might be my limit of money.

        And of course there are other lesser stallions in KY than this for way less fees that would also suit. Just showing you can get to the very top without spending that much more money on fees if you don't have to pay another $5,000 or so in transport and mare care and associated costs plus the risk to mare and foal. At least if she doesn't catch I haven't wasted all that money!
        Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

        Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

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