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"Live Cover" as defined by the Jockey Club?

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  • #41
    While I don't agree with AI for Thoroughbreds

    I doubt it would shrink the gene pool. Let's face it, if you have enough dosh to breed to Storm Cat or Giant's Causeway, you can afford to ship, breed and board your mare in our lovely Kentucky. I think the East coast v West coast thing, what with the advent of superhighways and planes is just not that big a deal. Besides, "you all" only live in California for the weather anyway.

    Comment


    • #42
      Ditto what Glimmerglass said. And I was one of the ones directly adversely affected by the LC rule. I was the owner that had papers yanked, even though I had no idea the horse I had bought had been conceived via AI. And I am STILL against AI in Tb's.
      Not all who wander are lost.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Slewdledo View Post
        Thank you, Glimmerglass.

        Summerhorse: Giant's Causeway. By Storm Cat. Stud fee: $300,000 in 2006. Mares bred in 2006: 191.
        Guess who is at a private fee for 2007? Does private mean $300,000? No, that means they can drop the fee and save face. Why? Because most of his foals are NOT bringing $300,000 in the sales ring. And his stats for $300,000 are pathetic. Yes he has good horses but he has far more bad horses. And he has failed miserably down under from all reports.

        But as someone pointed out that shows that live cover is NOT limiting book sizes.

        No Storm Cat will not breed more mares with AI. He might get a FEW more but not 200 or 400 or more than that. First of all there are only so many TB mares to go around. Very few warrant a $500,000 fee. Even with ET mares do not super ovulate so the most you could ever hope for from ETing your mare is 5 or 6 foals TOPS a year. ET is not cheap or easy or result in 100% success rate. And once there are twice as many Storm Cat babies on the ground they will no longer be worth $500,000 a pop. Unless he dies soon. then it would be a moot point because stallion semen does not freeze and store that well. You could get a few more years out of it and that would be it.

        But at any rate the number of stallions in this country (or anywhere) that stand for over $100,000 is literally a handful. 17 in the USA in fact including Giant's Causeway (fee unknown but certainly $100,000 at least). How many breeders can afford that? Not many! And a lot of those stallions are old and also their seasons are mostly used up by syndicate members not the general public.

        Yes fees will come down. They NEED to come down judging by the 2006 auction results. the fees are WAY out of line for what the breeders can hope to get back. Not a single stud fee range even hit 70% profit margin in 2006. So some breeders or pinhookers got lucky and most ended up in the red on individual horses. Hopefully they each had enough profitable ones to balance it out.

        Breed to race don't have that problem but they still have the problem that IF they wanted to sell the odds are against them getting their money back on the stud fee much less their other expenses.

        AI and ET would let ALL breeders play at all but the very top levels. Small breeders would no longer have to spend as much on shipping and boarding in order to get the best match for their mare and rarer bloodlines would be able to move around more. What if the perfect stallion for your mare if you are breeding by line breeding or inbreeding patterns happens to be in CA and you are in FL or NJ? Odds are pretty good you are going to NOT ship her out there but go to another stallion who may not be that perfect match but is closer. Or you have to settle for a lesser stud because you'd be spending $2,000 or $3,000 on shipping and board that might have gone to a $7,000 or $8,000 stallion instead of a lesser $5,000 one.

        It just boggles the mind why EVERY other species and breed has managed to not only make AI and ET work but BENEFIT from it and for some reason the whole TB world would just fall apart!! Personally I think most TB breeders are far smarter than that.

        WHY would you even breed to a stallion with no book limit? That should be the first question! Why pay to be one of 1,000 horses? Odds are PRETTY GOOD that you will be able to pick up one of those 1,000 horses at auction at far less than the stud fee while breeding your mare to a stallion with a book of 200 or less whose foals might stand a chance of HOLDING thier value because there are far fewer of them available. Making them much more valuable at the same fee.

        It is ironic that the people that benefit from the ban (the big breeders with unlimited resources) have convinced so many of the regular people to support their monopoly!

        The KY market will not collapse. That is still where the best (and most expensive) stock is and that will be where most of it STAYS because most of it is owned by people who either have farms there or board at farms there. At the highest level that won't change.

        At the other levels there may be some shuffling but they will survive. And regional markets may prosper. And small breeders can live anywhere and still have access to good stallions rather than Joe Blow down the road who is a grandson of Storm Cat! He couldn't outrun a turtle but hey he's down the road! And he's a grandson of Storm Cat! Never mind those other 7 generations in his pedigree that couldn't run or produce a runner...

        But it doesn't matter becuase it is not likely any of us (over 20 anyway) will EVER live long enough to see the JC step into the model world of animal science.

        Tradition is NOT always a good thing. Unless you are the owner of Coolmore...
        Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

        Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
          Guess who is at a private fee for 2007? Does private mean $300,000? No, that means they can drop the fee and save face. Why? Because most of his foals are NOT bringing $300,000 in the sales ring. And his stats for $300,000 are pathetic. Yes he has good horses but he has far more bad horses. And he has failed miserably down under from all reports.

          But as someone pointed out that shows that live cover is NOT limiting book sizes.

          No Storm Cat will not breed more mares with AI. He might get a FEW more but not 200 or 400 or more than that. First of all there are only so many TB mares to go around. Very few warrant a $500,000 fee. Even with ET mares do not super ovulate so the most you could ever hope for from ETing your mare is 5 or 6 foals TOPS a year. ET is not cheap or easy or result in 100% success rate. And once there are twice as many Storm Cat babies on the ground they will no longer be worth $500,000 a pop. Unless he dies soon. then it would be a moot point because stallion semen does not freeze and store that well. You could get a few more years out of it and that would be it.

          But at any rate the number of stallions in this country (or anywhere) that stand for over $100,000 is literally a handful. 17 in the USA in fact including Giant's Causeway (fee unknown but certainly $100,000 at least). How many breeders can afford that? Not many! And a lot of those stallions are old and also their seasons are mostly used up by syndicate members not the general public.

          Yes fees will come down. They NEED to come down judging by the 2006 auction results. the fees are WAY out of line for what the breeders can hope to get back. Not a single stud fee range even hit 70% profit margin in 2006. So some breeders or pinhookers got lucky and most ended up in the red on individual horses. Hopefully they each had enough profitable ones to balance it out.

          Breed to race don't have that problem but they still have the problem that IF they wanted to sell the odds are against them getting their money back on the stud fee much less their other expenses.

          AI and ET would let ALL breeders play at all but the very top levels. Small breeders would no longer have to spend as much on shipping and boarding in order to get the best match for their mare and rarer bloodlines would be able to move around more. What if the perfect stallion for your mare if you are breeding by line breeding or inbreeding patterns happens to be in CA and you are in FL or NJ? Odds are pretty good you are going to NOT ship her out there but go to another stallion who may not be that perfect match but is closer. Or you have to settle for a lesser stud because you'd be spending $2,000 or $3,000 on shipping and board that might have gone to a $7,000 or $8,000 stallion instead of a lesser $5,000 one.

          It just boggles the mind why EVERY other species and breed has managed to not only make AI and ET work but BENEFIT from it and for some reason the whole TB world would just fall apart!! Personally I think most TB breeders are far smarter than that.

          WHY would you even breed to a stallion with no book limit? That should be the first question! Why pay to be one of 1,000 horses? Odds are PRETTY GOOD that you will be able to pick up one of those 1,000 horses at auction at far less than the stud fee while breeding your mare to a stallion with a book of 200 or less whose foals might stand a chance of HOLDING thier value because there are far fewer of them available. Making them much more valuable at the same fee.

          It is ironic that the people that benefit from the ban (the big breeders with unlimited resources) have convinced so many of the regular people to support their monopoly!

          The KY market will not collapse. That is still where the best (and most expensive) stock is and that will be where most of it STAYS because most of it is owned by people who either have farms there or board at farms there. At the highest level that won't change.

          At the other levels there may be some shuffling but they will survive. And regional markets may prosper. And small breeders can live anywhere and still have access to good stallions rather than Joe Blow down the road who is a grandson of Storm Cat! He couldn't outrun a turtle but hey he's down the road! And he's a grandson of Storm Cat! Never mind those other 7 generations in his pedigree that couldn't run or produce a runner...

          But it doesn't matter becuase it is not likely any of us (over 20 anyway) will EVER live long enough to see the JC step into the model world of animal science.

          Tradition is NOT always a good thing. Unless you are the owner of Coolmore...

          I'm glad I'm not the only one that feel like the JC is in the dark ages!
          I think they just keep it that way to benefit the high levels, when all it does is hurt the horses in the long run. More mediocre foals born because of limitations that only effect Joe Blow whose wallet isn't as big as some other people in the sport.
          Science is a wonderful thing and I wouldn't exactly call shipping fresh semen a technological advance like sending man to the moon!

          Proud CANTER foster mommy
          RIP Barbaro
          In loving memory of Blitzen 1993-1/28/2007

          Comment


          • #45
            But what happens to the gene pool if folks only breed to the top stallions?

            Tesio believed that something intangible passed between the stallion and the mare during intercourse. Who's to say something doesn't?

            Frankly, I think it's ridiculous that folks have their stallions humping plastic and put everything in the hands of FedEx and the vet.
            It's a uterus, not a clown car. - Sayyedati

            Comment


            • #46
              Remember the flap in about 2001 about a palomino TB in Texas whose foals all had their papers yanked because the live cover rule was violated?

              Anyone know how that came out in the end?

              Not naming any stallion whose owner filed "incorrect" cover papers because I'm not sure.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                Remember the flap in about 2001 about a palomino TB in Texas whose foals all had their papers yanked because the live cover rule was violated?

                Anyone know how that came out in the end?

                Not naming any stallion whose owner filed "incorrect" cover papers because I'm not sure.

                They stayed yanked.
                Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Slewdledo View Post
                  But what happens to the gene pool if folks only breed to the top stallions?

                  Tesio believed that something intangible passed between the stallion and the mare during intercourse. Who's to say something doesn't?

                  Frankly, I think it's ridiculous that folks have their stallions humping plastic and put everything in the hands of FedEx and the vet.
                  Most people only breed to the top stallions now. Or the best they can afford. Most of the mares bred are bred by relatively few stallions. there were will still be many levels of stallions to breed to. But that is where smart stallion managers who limit their books come in and smart breeders who do not patronize anyone who does NOT.

                  there will still be regional stallions only they should be better quality. Anybody worried about inbreeding (and everyone seems to be) simply has to avoid it. It isn't that hard nor is it difficult to run inbreeding coefficients on matings.
                  Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                  Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
                    Most people only breed to the top stallions now. Or the best they can afford. Most of the mares bred are bred by relatively few stallions.
                    Define "top stallion" and "relatively few" (as in a number.)

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      They haven't printed those stats yet but there are something like 2,500 or 3,000 JC stallions sending reports in most years and of those I think around 30% bred most of the mares (like I don't know 70%). When they print them or I can find them I will post them.

                      The best stallions stand for $75,000 and up. A very elite group. The better ones stand for around $25,000-60,000. Then the "good ones" stand for $10,000-$24,000 or so. Below that are considered bargain basement or are stallions with little credentials (but maybe good bloodlines) trying to get enough mares to prove themselves. These are KY prices.

                      For regional markets everything goes way down. The larger ones NY, FL, CA, Mid Atlantic very few stallions stand for over $10,000, they are the best of their region. The better stallions are generally $5,000-10,000. New or unproven well bred stallions are in the $2,500-3,000 range. Lower than that they are either unraced or underachievers as stallions. Of course there are overpriced stallions in every catagory.

                      Although for those breeding to race the fees are NOT necessarily reflective of the best choice for your mare. They are reflective of sales popularity which drives the industry anymore rather than actual performance. You can find very good values in horses with unfashionable but producing pedigrees. Slew City Slew and Royal Academy are near the top of the sires list but Slew stands for $7,000 and RA for around $15,000? (under $20,000). But they get solid racehorses.

                      So it pays to become familiar with a stallions statistics not only overall but with mares with pedigrees like yours. The big stallion may look good on paper but not match up well with your mare in conformation or blood or he may just be one of those that gets a few big horses and a whole bunch of bad ones.

                      And some nice prospects can be found by basically haunting the big boys trash. Gibson County was a grade 2 stakes winner, brilliantly fast with a lovely (but not fashionable) pedigree and his owner Mike Pegram (of real Quiet and Silverbulletday fame) sent him to some friends who were going to geld him and make a roping horse out of him! Luckily they saw A) he was not a roping horse and B) you know this guy has way better credentials than most of the stallions that retire to FL each year!

                      For a while he lead the nation for the freshman sire list with a very small crop out of average mares. Now he stands for $3,000 (not a Storm Cat!) and is a very good value and his better bred foals won't even be born until this year and next. Expect that fee to go up.
                      Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                      Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
                        They haven't printed those stats yet but there are something like 2,500 or 3,000 JC stallions sending reports in most years and of those I think around 30% bred most of the mares (like I don't know 70%). When they print them or I can find them I will post them.
                        So you're saying that 900 stallions (30% of 3000) are sireing on average 25,900 foals (70% of 37,000) per year, which means those stallions are producing over 280 foals each? I think you'd better wait on the JC info (of course the 2006 mares bred stats are readily available at the Blood horse site) before you continue with your misinformation campaign. You're entitled to your wrong opinion, but please don't try to justify it with phony info. I'll call you on it every time.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by On the Farm View Post
                          So you're saying that 900 stallions (30% of 3000) are sireing on average 25,900 foals (70% of 37,000) per year, which means those stallions are producing over 280 foals each? I think you'd better wait on the JC info (of course the 2006 mares bred stats are readily available at the Blood horse site) before you continue with your misinformation campaign. You're entitled to your wrong opinion, but please don't try to justify it with phony info. I'll call you on it every time.

                          Here you can do the math: http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleind...e.asp?id=35880 Note that is with about 90% of reports in.

                          But if you don't want to bother using the stallions from KY, FL, NY, MD, and CA where the better stallions (overall) stand 31.4% of the stallions at stud covered 61.6% of the mares bred. (that's total stallions standing and total mares bred)

                          Add in TX and LA who do have numbers but not the quality and you can bring that to 46.4 % of the stallions covered 68.8% of the mares.

                          For a blow by blow description http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/marelistreport.asp

                          It seems my phony numbers (which were from memory) weren't so far off. Pretty darn close in fact.
                          Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                          Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            My bad for leaving out a decimal, which does bring the numbers into a better picture. So that average is 28 and change/per sire for the 900 sires. Does your info contain the median numbers of mares bred/sire? My apologies for my own misinformation.

                            However, I still think your argument of greater diversity still falls apart since tbs are a closed book. Only so many mares are available for breeding and if the mares bred are doubled, say from 107 to 214 for Royal Academy (hey, I got the math right on that one!!) then those mares have to come from somewhere. From your perspective, which stallions will lose those mares? Will it be the big names, the middle market, or the regional group?

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by On the Farm View Post
                              My bad for leaving out a decimal, which does bring the numbers into a better picture. So that average is 28 and change/per sire for the 900 sires. Does your info contain the median numbers of mares bred/sire? My apologies for my own misinformation.

                              However, I still think your argument of greater diversity still falls apart since tbs are a closed book. Only so many mares are available for breeding and if the mares bred are doubled, say from 107 to 214 for Royal Academy (hey, I got the math right on that one!!) then those mares have to come from somewhere. From your perspective, which stallions will lose those mares? Will it be the big names, the middle market, or the regional group?

                              Well if breeders have any sense it will be the worst stallions that lose! With AI breeders can access a better stallion than they could before. But that won't necessarily mean these breeders will be rolling in cash just that they will now be able to get more bang for their buck as well as more bloodline choices. Economically it will be the good and better stallions that will gain but unless there are a lot of Lotto winners probably not many of the highest price stallions books or numbers will change a whole lot. To keep those fees high they need to keep the books exclusive. And they want those fees high.
                              Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                              Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                If AI was entrenched in the industry, do you honestly think horses like Gibson County would even stand a chance of entering stud?

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Absolutely. Why wouldnt he have been? He was used almost exclusively by his owners until his foals were proven. They used him because they LIKED him. And at this point I guarantee if they would allow AI, he'd be shipped all over the country; there has been that much interest in him as an outcross.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Stallion Availability

                                    I do want to point out that just because I could come up with the fee doesn't mean that my mare would be acceptable to breed to one of those elite stallions at the top. I don't think that she'd be accepted by quite a few of the very good stallions in the Mid-Atlantic, our region, either.

                                    Responsible stallion owners figure out how to improve their stallions by being selective about the mares they are bred to. Yes, we are surrounded by failed sons of Storm Cat, Mr. P, Deputy Minister, etc, whose owners are cranking out lesser quality foals and collecting their $500 - $1500 fee. There isn't a big jump between those horses and the excellent sons of similar pedigree with solid performance and offspring records standing for $2,500 - $20,000. Mare owners need to pony up the extra grand and be a bit more choosy about where they pick their matings. I know from my own visits to Northview Stallion Station, Bonita Farm, Blue Ridge Farm, Maryland Stallion Station, Legacy Farm and O' Sullivan, there are a good variety of pedigrees and the stud managers & staff are more than happy to speak with experience about which bloodlines match up with which stallions. I have heard more than once advice against breeding to a stallion I just thought was wonderful. Not right for my mare.

                                    If I've got a mare who would be accepted in AP Indy's book, you can be darned sure that shipping her to him wouldn't be a problem, nor would coming up with the board and stud fees. Foal sharing, partnerships, leases, etc make up a big part of the business or breeding thoroughbreds.

                                    AI is very important, IMO, in breeds where there are so very few quality horses available, in order for someone to breed to the best possible rather than the stud down the block. Look at Cleveland Bays! There are many vanishing breeds who have used AI to benefit the breed.

                                    AI in thoroughbreds in the real time isn't going to improve the breed, careful planning of matings is. Owners who are interested in a long term goal with their breeding plan, not cranking out a fast developing prospect for the weanling sales. Obviously, allowing AI would make accessablility to less popular but well qualified stallions much easier. The difference between European and North American breeding shows that. Red Ransom was bred by Rokeby, stood in NA for a while and is now in europe where he is more attractive for their programs. But there simply isn't a dearth of quality stallions of that type right here for there to be a need to change the AI rules.

                                    Not allowing AI definately benefits the stud farm owners in that the mares sent to court come complete with board bills. There is an entire industry just around the shipping and boarding, but, as I said, were I to have a good enough mare to be accepted to a top stallion, I bet I wouldn't have to look too hard to find a willing partner to share the costs.
                                    "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I can't speak to Maryland but I know what's available in California and it's not just a question of coming up with a little more money. I'm near the top end of the stud fees here as it is but, for various reasons, there are only about 4 stallions in the state I'd actually breed to which is why I took it on the road. I don't want to breed to the failed $2500 son of Storm Cat because mentally I can't help but add $20,000 to the cost of the fee to raise the baby and there is almost no chance that those stallions will sire anything worth near that much.

                                      There's another phenomena out here that does not happen in Kentucky and I suspect doesn't happen in alot of the Eastern states. Distances, even within the same state, are huge out here and live cover means that you have to board with unfamiliar folks if they stand a stallion you're interested in. There is one stallion in a major farm who is one of the more expensive stallions in the state that I won't utilize because the mare care there is reportedly atrocious. Horses have reportedly come back thin and banged up. I know a fellow breeder who had a mare foal out at a (different) large farm so he could breed to one of the leading sires in the state. That foal has never thrived and he found out when she came home that she was sickly from birth and may not have been treated as aggressively as she should have been early. No one told him anything and he didn't even know anything was wrong until he got the first bill and spotted some antibiotics on it.

                                      There is thread after thread on COTH about boarding facilities and trusting their competence etc etc. Well, that's a way of life for many TB breeders under live cover. You send a mare off--sometimes to different states--and you often have no idea what's happening to her, who's looking after her or what they are doing. It's worse when there is a baby involved too.

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                                      • #59
                                        I have to digress from the original focus for a minute and add my $0.02.

                                        I believe that the today's Thoroughbred as a breed is at a point where there are a large number of Tbs in a wide range of talent. I believe that there is a large "middle class" in the racing TB world today. I believe there are a lot of factors that go into that - including regional programs that promote the breeding of "less than stellar" racing stock by way of bonus incentives. I believe that we are at a point where we can either reinforce the breed by breeding the best to the best (which we smaller breeders will be able to better afford via AI) or we can further dilute the talent of the breed by breeding mediocre stock (Joe Blow down the road). Of course this equation only takes into consideration the stallions......the mare is an equal part of the equation, however she has a limit to how many foals per year she can have, even considering ET - the stallions have a deeper impact overall on the breed than the mares (IMHO). So, if we begin AI, the middle and lower class stallions will be culled and upper classes more readily available to the smaller breeders whose homebreds comprise a goodly % of the TB foal crop. And in the next generation, the broodmares will be daughters of the better stallions, and further strengthen the breed. Poor producing mares will be culled as availability increases to daughters of better sires.

                                        This is what we can do with the breed today, IMHO.

                                        Or we can continue to promote mediocrity by insisting on live cover - where location and $ become greater factors in the breeding decision.

                                        Just my $0.02 - back to your regularly sheduled program.
                                        Jessi Pizzurro ~~ Pennyroyal Stables
                                        Racehorses, OTTBs ~~ 330 383 1281
                                        Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway. -- John Wayne

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Jessi P View Post
                                          I have to digress from the original focus for a minute and add my $0.02.

                                          I believe that the today's Thoroughbred as a breed is at a point where there are a large number of Tbs in a wide range of talent. I believe that there is a large "middle class" in the racing TB world today. I believe there are a lot of factors that go into that - including regional programs that promote the breeding of "less than stellar" racing stock by way of bonus incentives. I believe that we are at a point where we can either reinforce the breed by breeding the best to the best (which we smaller breeders will be able to better afford via AI) or we can further dilute the talent of the breed by breeding mediocre stock (Joe Blow down the road). Of course this equation only takes into consideration the stallions......the mare is an equal part of the equation, however she has a limit to how many foals per year she can have, even considering ET - the stallions have a deeper impact overall on the breed than the mares (IMHO). So, if we begin AI, the middle and lower class stallions will be culled and upper classes more readily available to the smaller breeders whose homebreds comprise a goodly % of the TB foal crop. And in the next generation, the broodmares will be daughters of the better stallions, and further strengthen the breed. Poor producing mares will be culled as availability increases to daughters of better sires.

                                          This is what we can do with the breed today, IMHO.

                                          Or we can continue to promote mediocrity by insisting on live cover - where location and $ become greater factors in the breeding decision.

                                          Just my $0.02 - back to your regularly sheduled program.

                                          I agree

                                          And on the boarding/shipping thing too. I've heard SO many horror stories of neglected mares, sick and dying foals, etc. The fact is it is hard to find anyone to take as good a care of your mare as you esp. when they are running 100s or 1000s through a season.
                                          Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                                          Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

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