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"Live Cover" as defined by the Jockey Club?

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  • "Live Cover" as defined by the Jockey Club?

    I know this is a basic question for you all but I'm not a racing person so I'd love to be enlightened...

    I'm have a debate with a colleague over what exactly "Live Cover" is by Jockey Club standards. Is it that the stallion has to actually mount the broodmare who is in fact going to carry the foal? Or can the stallion mount a dummy and then the semen be transferred or can it be done in some other way? I'm assuming it's the first based on this quote I found from the Jockey Club

    “the physical mounting of a broodmare by a stallion with intromission of the penis and ejaculation of semen into the reproductive tract.”

    The other person is insisting that there is a (legal) way besides the stallion mounting the actual mare, because the horses are so expensive and fragile that they wouldn't risk them by putting them in that situation.

    Am I right or am I being to literal in my definition?

    Thank you for humoring my question
    Sarah ( & Regal)

    what doesn't kill you makes you stronger -
    unless it breaks your heart first

  • #2
    The definition is absolute, there are no exceptions. Collecting the um, leftover as the stallion dismounts and introducing that via AI is allowed (and probably how those big book stallions manage to get through a season!) but the act MUST be performed. If the JC finds out a horse was bred otherwise the papers will be yanked regardless of whether the owner knew about it or not.

    Personally I think it is ridiculous but them's the rules.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
      The definition is absolute, there are no exceptions. Collecting the um, leftover as the stallion dismounts and introducing that via AI is allowed (and probably how those big book stallions manage to get through a season!) but the act MUST be performed. If the JC finds out a horse was bred otherwise the papers will be yanked regardless of whether the owner knew about it or not.

      Personally I think it is ridiculous but them's the rules.
      Thanks for the quick reply

      So two follow ups... they can use AI as long as there is a live breeding first?

      And so this means people who breed racehorses must either breed to studs close by, or else ship their mares? Do people regularly ship to breed or do most stay local?
      Sarah ( & Regal)

      what doesn't kill you makes you stronger -
      unless it breaks your heart first

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Regalmeans View Post
        The other person is insisting that there is a (legal) way besides the stallion mounting the actual mare, because the horses are so expensive and fragile that they wouldn't risk them by putting them in that situation.
        Even the immaculate conception would be rejected by the Jockey Club

        Jockey Club Rules

        Breeding Practices Not Approved by The Jockey Club

        Artificial Insemination: The process of depositing semen into the reproductive tract of a broodmare in order to get a broodmare in foal (pregnant) without the physical mounting by a stallion.
        The JC's black and white rule is exceedingly clear that mounting is part of the deal. Period. I don't care how good the lawyer is, by their definition of what is AI, alone, it knocks out any claims of non-mounting as being legal for registration.

        Example of an inquiry by the JC when they received suggestions of a breeder not following the rules:
        Jockey Club Launches AI Inquiry, Sets Separate Hearing "


        Further rules:
        D. To be eligible for registration, a foal must be the result of a stallion’s Breeding with a broodmare (which is the physical mounting of a broodmare by a stallion with intromission of the penis and ejaculation of semen into the reproductive tract). As an aid to the Breeding, a portion of the ejaculate produced by the stallion during such mating may immediately be placed in the uterus of the broodmare being bred. A natural gestation must take place in, and delivery must be from, the body of the same broodmare in which the foal was conceived. Without limiting the above, any foal resulting from or produced by the processes of Artificial Insemination, Embryo Transfer or Transplant, Cloning or any other form of genetic manipulation not herein specified, shall not be eligible for registration.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Regalmeans View Post
          Thanks for the quick reply

          So two follow ups... they can use AI as long as there is a live breeding first?

          And so this means people who breed racehorses must either breed to studs close by, or else ship their mares? Do people regularly ship to breed or do most stay local?
          There is no AI in the sense that goes on with other breeds. "Spillage", shall we say, from the mounting can be collected and placed in the mare, right away.

          And yes, people ship all over the place, round the world, mares to stallions, as that's a lot more practical. Obviously if you don't have a lot of money to spend, you stay local.

          Some TB stallions cover year round, spending half the year in the Northern hemisphere and from July on in the Southern hemispher.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Regalmeans View Post
            And so this means people who breed racehorses must either breed to studs close by, or else ship their mares? Do people regularly ship to breed or do most stay local?
            Yes, the mares are routinely shipped to the best stallions for them that the owner can afford.

            But many mares are also boarded year-round at large stallion farms and thus have ready access to a wide variety of studs (think Kentucky and other racing-heavy venues). It's pretty rare for a serious TB breeder to keep a top mare or two at home and foal her out, as is often the case with sporthorse breeders. (I'm not saying that it can't and doesn't happen, but the vast majority of top mares are boarded at the top farms.)
            Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

            Comment


            • #7
              The TB breeding industry revolves around the van instead of the Equitainer. It is very common for a regional breeder (California, Florida, New York) to ship a mare to Kentucky to be bred and bring the mare back to foal in state for foal awards and to make the foal eligible for restricted races down the road. That's how Distorted Humor sired the New York bred Funny Cide. On the stallion side, it is also common for stallions to shuttle from Northern to Southern hemispheres to take advantage of the different breeding seasons. And Beezer's right--it is not common for mares to stay at home unless the owner has a large farm. This is in part due to live cover restrictions.

              The JC is deadly serious about live cover. If there is even a hint that the stallion didn't jump the mare, there will be an investigation and foal may end up unregistered.

              Comment


              • #8
                The process that's been referred to above is known as boosting and happens just after the stallion has mounted the mare and ejaculated inside her. After he dismounts, a handler catches the last of the ejaculate in a cup (how'd you like to have that job? amazing what these guys do with a straight face. ) and it is inserted into the mare.

                At some farms, like Hill n Dale, it's done routinely. At others, they boost the breeding only when they feel it's necessary, for example if the stallion has hopped off prematurely. Though it is a type of AI, for the purposes of JC registration, it's only done in conjunction with a live cover.
                www.laurienberenson.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is something I've always wondered about--are there also rules about the mare that is bred is the mare that must carry the embryo? Because "live cover" could happen before flushing the mare.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes, the mare must carry her own foal. They do not allow embryo transfer regardless of how the embryo was conceived. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing, but at this point it doesn't really matter what I feel.
                    McDowell Racing Stables

                    Home Away From Home

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There was a VERY well bred stallion in my neck of the woods, years ago- he was by Northern Dancer, if memory serves, and the brilliant Vet Roy Bergman managed to get his book in foal to him every year. Word was, his semen was not so great. Back then, we called it "reinforcement", when the mare was..er...AI'd after the live cover.

                      He stood down in Unionville...just can't remember his name!
                      When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                      www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                      http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I know of a TB farm that stood one QH stud so they could have the dummy there for AI purposes....strange enough the front gate was locked during breeding sessions!!!!!!!!!!
                        To get in the winners' circle you must first get into the gate

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by QHJockee View Post
                          I know of a TB farm that stood one QH stud so they could have the dummy there for AI purposes....strange enough the front gate was locked during breeding sessions!!!!!!!!!!

                          Just a coinkydink I'm SURE!!! =8-O
                          Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                          Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I know of a good stallion who was definitely impregnating his mares via AI. That's straight from the guys who worked with him.

                            It is just not possible for a stallion to cover five mares a day for the duration of the season.
                            It's a uterus, not a clown car. - Sayyedati

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I honestly don't see why the JC insists on live cover. I mean what the heck is the difference how it was done as long as it gets done??
                              A simple DNA test confirms who the parents are anyway, so what's the big deal??
                              Think of all the stallions and mares who are aggressive, nevermind the ones to unsound to hold the weight of a live cover. Mares can kick even if they are tied. I watched a live cover at one of NY's larger TB race farms last year and the mare got out of the hobble during the teaser.
                              Now think of how much better off the industry would be if semen from the better stallions was easily accessible to any approved mare, from anywhere in the country?? Just imagine, limitless possibilities!
                              I think the JC is in the stone ages on this one. Flame me if you must, but nothing is going to change my opinion on this. Thankfully, it doesn't effect me one way or another because i don't breed race horses, I breed show dogs. I can't imagine not having access to chilled, shipped semen. We can breed much better show dogs now because of that availability! The gene pool is sooooo much better now!

                              Proud CANTER foster mommy
                              RIP Barbaro
                              In loving memory of Blitzen 1993-1/28/2007

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by HobbyHorseLabradors View Post
                                I honestly don't see why the JC insists on live cover. I mean what the heck is the difference how it was done as long as it gets done??
                                A simple DNA test confirms who the parents are anyway, so what's the big deal??
                                Think of all the stallions and mares who are aggressive, nevermind the ones to unsound to hold the weight of a live cover. Mares can kick even if they are tied. I watched a live cover at one of NY's larger TB race farms last year and the mare got out of the hobble during the teaser.
                                Now think of how much better off the industry would be if semen from the better stallions was easily accessible to any approved mare, from anywhere in the country?? Just imagine, limitless possibilities!
                                I think the JC is in the stone ages on this one. Flame me if you must, but nothing is going to change my opinion on this. Thankfully, it doesn't effect me one way or another because i don't breed race horses, I breed show dogs. I can't imagine not having access to chilled, shipped semen. We can breed much better show dogs now because of that availability! The gene pool is sooooo much better now!
                                So the big boys can keep iron control on the stallion market. Forget the free market. The small breeders would LOVE it, the big ones (most of which do it anyway to some degree) would hate it. Stallion fees would come down for sure but after a few crazy years everything would equalize. Course if they allowed AI they'd have to allow ET and HEAVEN FORBID a good mare contributes more than one foal a year (if that) to the gene pool while any old mediocre or unraced son of Storm Cat can impregnate as many as they can line up suckers for.

                                And heaven forbid too that mares like Toussaud don't have to give birth only to have their foals ripped away from them every year. I guess maybe she's used to it by now.

                                And of course why provide a job for some of those "unwanted" but fertile mares that get sent to slaughter every year? They could easily live on nice farms and foal out royally bred babies. You couldn't tell THEM that is not their baby...

                                Not to mention not having to ship your mare and new foal to a farm that may or may not take good care of them via a shipping company that may or may not transport them well (seems that NObody has 100% clean record) not to mention the expense if you don't live near a stallion "center".

                                LOL don't get me started...
                                Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                                Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
                                  So the big boys can keep iron control on the stallion market. Forget the free market. The small breeders would LOVE it, the big ones (most of which do it anyway to some degree) would hate it. Stallion fees would come down for sure but after a few crazy years everything would equalize. Course if they allowed AI they'd have to allow ET and HEAVEN FORBID a good mare contributes more than one foal a year (if that) to the gene pool while any old mediocre or unraced son of Storm Cat can impregnate as many as they can line up suckers for.

                                  And heaven forbid too that mares like Toussaud don't have to give birth only to have their foals ripped away from them every year. I guess maybe she's used to it by now.

                                  And of course why provide a job for some of those "unwanted" but fertile mares that get sent to slaughter every year? They could easily live on nice farms and foal out royally bred babies. You couldn't tell THEM that is not their baby...

                                  Not to mention not having to ship your mare and new foal to a farm that may or may not take good care of them via a shipping company that may or may not transport them well (seems that NObody has 100% clean record) not to mention the expense if you don't live near a stallion "center".

                                  LOL don't get me started...

                                  Very good points to add to my argument (especially the unwanted mares one) but then again, no one will listen anyway.
                                  Must be a bunch of cave men running the JC

                                  Proud CANTER foster mommy
                                  RIP Barbaro
                                  In loving memory of Blitzen 1993-1/28/2007

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Glimmerglass
                                    That is unless the stallion is Rohn Jheremy

                                    Sorry I just could resist and no you cannot google the name and find a stallion (or anything) by that name/spelling!
                                    Bad, Glimmer. Bad bad bad.
                                    Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      They do what they have to do

                                      I think the JC should allow AI and embryo transfer. I also think they should hold inspections and not let second rate non performing horses into the breeding shed.
                                      CasperTheWonderPony

                                      I used to belong to Casper. Now I belong to Charlie (first and foremost), Perris The Heiress, Bella Lua, and Blanca and Gypsy the miniature donkeys.

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                                      • #20
                                        Standardbred registries have been allowing AI for years, ever since that huge mess in Kentucky over equine STDs so long ago. One can have semen shipped from any farm that ships, no problems. We have also been doing DNA parent verification for ages and blood typing long before that. Embryo transfer is also allowed, but only one foal per mare per year, no multiple foals from embryo transfer mares. I think the JC is long overdue for an overhaul - stepping into the 1970's would be a huge step for them; expecting them to step into the 21st century might be expecting too much though - culture shock for the Old Boys Club.

                                        In any case, DNA or no, one CAN get into parent verification problems with live cover as well: this scenario happened a few years ago - mare died when the foal was 3-4 months old and the breeder forgot to save some mane hairs and registering that USTA horse (DNA not required then) to SC was a real headache for the man. All that saved his bacon was he had a half sibling to that horse, and managed that way to prove who the mare was by marker eliminations.
                                        Founder of the Dyslexic Clique. Dyslexics of the world - UNTIE!!

                                        Member: Incredible Invisbles

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