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Cross post from Sport horse breeding...I need her papers! Michael Gill wont give!

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  • Cross post from Sport horse breeding...I need her papers! Michael Gill wont give!

    .
    Last edited by LittleblackMorgan; Aug. 24, 2009, 12:06 PM.

  • #2
    I know someone that may be able to get them, what's the mare's name?
    DAILY THOUGHT:

    SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES - NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

    Comment


    • #3
      phone call has been made, she'll see what she can do
      DAILY THOUGHT:

      SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES - NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        THANK YOU. Immensely!!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          If you have a BOS you can get duplicates. You will need photos and a complete describtion, including all markings and cowlicks. It does cost $200.00. Check the Jockey Club site for requirements. You can find the original describtion at the JC.

          Comment


          • #6
            Papers

            Originally posted by LittleblackMorgan View Post
            I'm having a hard time getting the papers for my OTTB mare.
            The owner WAS Michael Gill. Apparently he will only release a PHOTO COPY of the papers.

            What are my legal options?? I have the bill of sale. I want to get her inspected for AHS breeding. Cant do it with out the papers. NO WHERE on the bill of sale does it say NO PAPERS/NOT FOR BREEDING. All it says is not for slaughter.

            No mention of pedigree. I'm pissed. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?Bueller?

            AND I changed the ownership with the JC via interactive reg the DAY I bought her.
            If you have the bill of sale signed by both go to Suffock to the racing office file your bill of sale with the stewards and pick up your papers from the identifier.
            Last edited by Muleskick; Aug. 10, 2009, 10:25 PM. Reason: spelling

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lily04 View Post
              If you have a BOS you can get duplicates. You will need photos and a complete describtion, including all markings and cowlicks. It does cost $200.00. Check the Jockey Club site for requirements. You can find the original describtion at the JC.
              That only works out if the previous owner signs an affidavit swearing how the papers were lost or destroyed. Doesn't sound like that is likely to happen.
              McDowell Racing Stables

              Home Away From Home

              Comment


              • #8
                Just curious, but who is the bill of sale from? If it's not Gill, even if you get the papers he's not likely to sign over the transfer. As Laurie alludes to, it sounds like a lost cause if he flat out says he won't give them as he's not going to sign them over either.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am surprised he is being so difficult. Are you sure that a copy of her papers along with her tattoo isn't good enough for whatever registry you are shooting for? I am sure this isn't the first time something like this has come up.
                  McDowell Racing Stables

                  Home Away From Home

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't know if the JC has become more difficult lately, but I've sent in the proper pics along with a check and gotten duplicate papers with no problems. No bill of sale was asked for. My husband "misplaced" the originals, they did ask what happened and I gave them a little variation on the story.

                    With the one horse, his tattoo was completely unreadable (looked like Chinese, really).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      from the rule book-
                      # A. If a Certificate of Foal Registration has been lost or destroyed, a Duplicate Certificate of Foal Registration may be issued by the Registry Office upon submission of the following:

                      * 1. A check or money order payable to The Jockey Club covering the prescribed fee (see Fee Schedule);
                      * 2. A set of four color photographs of the horse (front, both sides, and rear views) clearly showing the color and the markings (or lack of markings) on the head, legs and body;
                      * 3. A completed and signed Duplicate Certificate Form containing the written description of the markings on the horse, including the exact location of the head and neck cowlicks;
                      * 4. A notarized statement from the owner or his authorized agent describing the circumstances under which the Certificate of Foal Registration was lost or destroyed;
                      * 5. Proof of ownership of that specific horse (for example, a bill of sale or cancelled check including the name or pedigree of the horse, date of sale and the name of the new owner); and
                      * 6. Any further evidence and assurances as The Jockey Club may require, such as genetic typing and/or parentage verification.

                      # B. Except as expressly provided in this Rule 9, a Duplicate Certificate of Foal Registration will not be issued as long as the Certificate of Foal Registration is known to be in existence; provided however, in the event of a sheriff's (or similar) sale or under a non-appealable Court Order, a Duplicate Certificate of Foal Registration will be issued if the original Certificate of Foal Registration cannot be obtained from the previous owner only after a good faith effort to recover it is made by the seller and/or the new owner. In either case, the requirements of Rule 9(A) 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 must be met and an opinion must be submitted to The Jockey Club from an attorney or an official representative of the court, indicating that the sale (if applicable) was conducted in accordance with the laws of the state and providing such other information as The Jockey Club may request regarding the circumstances and validity of the sale or Court Order.
                      Be a part of the solution~ Adopt a thoroughbred!
                      MidAtlanticHorseRescue.org

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        thanks, I knew all that

                        I am going to try one more time to get them the proper way, from the former owner. Otherwise I will just fork out the money and get dups from the JC, which should not be a problem since I am the owner of record.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LittleblackMorgan View Post
                          thanks, I knew all that

                          I am going to try one more time to get them the proper way, from the former owner. Otherwise I will just fork out the money and get dups from the JC, which should not be a problem since I am the owner of record.
                          Good luck with that. FYI when you commit fraud its not a good idea to announce that fact on the internet.
                          McDowell Racing Stables

                          Home Away From Home

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Uh, how is it fraud? Explain the situation and hope for the best? If I cant get them, so be it. I will mail them, with the money, the pics, the bill of sale and a letter explaining that I never recieved the papers and would like them. I am the owner of record with the Jockey Club, have the horse, have the bill of sale-if they will not issue me papers, then I obviously have no recourse and am proverbially screwed.

                            By saying "doing things the right way" I meant PROPERLY, ie, going through the track/trainer to get the papers instead of over his head. Believe me, I would rather not spend the money but what else can I do? Apparently this is common in the TB industry when a horse is sold.

                            Not for nothing, but in my line of work I require government clearance. Fraud would ruin my career.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ok before you waste your time then part of the process is an affidavit stating how the papers were lost or destroyed. They obviously were neither of those things so duplicates are not an option legally.
                              McDowell Racing Stables

                              Home Away From Home

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                The JC wont reissue if the papers were not given during the sale?

                                Listen, I dont know if you are getting hot under the collar, and I dont mean to come across as anything other than curious and ignorant of the process. My gelding is an unpapered Morgan. All of this registery stuff is totally new to me, and perhaps I am leaning on my experience with cars and dogs too much.

                                In other words, I have no clue what I'm doing, how to get what I need/want and just want some valid advice on this. I wasnt aware of the rigamarole with getting papers. If she wasnt going to come with them, I never would have bought her. Thats my bad, since I emailed the seller and said "please have her coggins/reg papers ready when I get her".

                                She only handed me a coggins and said she didnt have the papers at her location. There was no explanation, but then again I didnt ask. I just figured I would call the track, they would say come get em (they did, then saw the owners/trainers name, and said they had to ask him first??).

                                And here we are.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Ok sorry, I guess I assumed you read the post above outlining the procedures for obtaining duplicates. If you do read it you will see that you do not qualify under any of the scenarios listed therein. If it really is that big of a deal to you I would try small claim's court suing for the perceived difference in value for a papered broodmare vs. an unpapered one. If you win you can offer to accept the papers in lieu of payment. That will most likely get their attention. A judgement against them can be turned into the stewards and they will be unable to race until it is settled.
                                  McDowell Racing Stables

                                  Home Away From Home

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    It is the norm to require the actual owner's transfer on the original papers

                                    As for them not being given to you, I can see both sides of that. I sold a lovely 3 year old as a hunter and I did release his papers with a note in the sales contract that he was not to be raced (he was never raced and never meant to race - had been in professional HUNTER training). A few months later that person re-sold him to someone who is racing him. I'm following his career in case I need to scoop him back up.

                                    The only true way to stop them from being raced again is to send the papers into the jockey club and they destroy them or whatever they do with them - it's basically like the horse is dead. I hate to do that because people like to have papers (I do too). It's very frustrating, but we've seen it multiple times, where even horses with known health issues have been raced after the buyer promised they were just going to breed them or pleasure ride them. One poor mare that had almost died from pneumonia and had a ton of lung damage was raced shortly after she was purchased, so I can see why some people turn in the papers or refuse to give them. Unfortunately, you should have been informed of that at the time of the purchase.

                                    In your case, I would think you could contact the registry that you are trying to get her approved under and see if what you have is enough. I'm sure they've dealt with this before and can give you some advice. I'd also keep trying and see if you can talk to Mike Gill directly and just use sugar instead of vinegar IMO - if you really want her papers yu will have to persuade him. Ownership is generally not tracked in the JC (to my knowledge), it's usually on the papers only and at the race tracks for racing purposes.

                                    Good luck!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      LBM, to relate it back to the dogs thing a little, selling a TB without it's papers is kind of like selling a purebred AKC dog "without pedigree". It's not illegal, and it stops the dog from being shown in breed shows. Same thing with TBs; it stops the horse from being raced. Appealing to the JC with a bill of sale that is not from the person of record who last has the foal papers (industry term for registration papers) and the cash is like a person who bought a pet quality non-registered puppy and is now trying to get the AKC to register it. Right or wrong it was Gill's rights as owner to transfer or not transfer the papers. Whoever you got the bill of sale from may have legal rights to sell you the horse because they bought or were given the horse by Gill or his authorized agent, but not the registration on the horse. Laurie's idea of small claims is probably the second choice best thing to do, after trying to appeal to Gill with a polite solid arguement as to why you expected the papers and registration as part of the sale. If your seller is in a habit of selling off his horses he might not like the implication that the horses are coming with papers the seller is making.

                                      Witherbee, online transfer of ownership is doable for tracking purposes through an equineline account but it does not transfer registration. Therein lies the rub; the JC will know you have the horse by this purpose and should they ever want to mail you for some reason associated with that they could, but this is not a transfer of registration and does not entitle the new owner to the registration either. As you recalled correctly, to transfer registration the papers have to be signed over by the current owner to the new owner right on the second page.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Be very careful of someone "getting the papers" from the ID office without Gills consent (if they are still in his folder). If he throws a fit, the person who signed them out can face the stewards, fined, or ruled off. The only person that can withdrawl papers are the owner and trainer on record. Anyone else can get into hot water- not sure if that favor is worth their license.... just a thought!

                                        Good luck!

                                        Comment

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