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Is this Legend or are certain TB lines known for being belligerent?

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  • Is this Legend or are certain TB lines known for being belligerent?

    I've heard from some racing folk that the Turn-To and Nasrullah lines tend to be difficult, belligerent(sp?)and willfull. Several people have told me this is due to the Hastings influence.

    Is this even true or is it a myth? What are y'alls opinions?

  • #2
    I thought it was pretty well accepted that Nasrullah lines could be tough. Actually I just worked with the assumption that the whole Nearco affair was bound to be full of tough horses (case in point, the Danzig obit pointed out that Danzig was a tough SOB like his dad Nothern Dancer - Nearctic/Nearco).

    But I always equated it with "tough as in good racehorse tough". Like most really good athletes, you have to finesse the realtionship.

    OK, except for this one Nijinski colt I worked with. He was tough in the sense that he should have been put in a can of dogfood.
    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.


    • #3
      The funny thing about these so-called "tough" lines, though, is that many of their members end up being famous for their EASY temperaments-- Nassrullah is perhaps the best example. His descendants are famous for "toughness," yet his son, Bold Ruler, and his descendants (e.g. Secretariat, Foolish Pleasure, etc.), are well known for their sweet dispositions. Furthermore, Nasrullah's son, Nashua, was perhaps THE single most famous for his toughness/stubborness (e.g. some days he wouldn't even leave the gate). Nonetheless, Nashua's son, Diplomat Way, was a wonderfully honest horse, famous for throwing equally diligent runners-- not to mention the very sweet show horse sire, Our Diplomat. My own Nashua line mare (her sire and broodmare sire were both out of Nashua mares) is the most solid, useful, cooperative horse I've ever met. My personal experience with the Nasrullah line horses is that they are marvelous athletes with a definite "racehorse-type" toughness that can work for or against you depending upon what you do with it-- both in the breeding shed (i.e. depending on the temperament you cross it with) and in training: it was hard to establish dominance over my own mare when I was starting her as a yearling, but once she accepted me as boss (e.g. stopped running right over me in the stall), she became the easiest horse I ever had-- in large part, I'm sure, because she's so bold, tough and confident that once she was into working for her trainer/rider, there was practically nothing that could spook her or distract her attention.


      • #4
        That is too true, fish. I own two Diplomat Way horses and both of them are the easiest going horses out there. But as much as I think there are tough lines out there, I think it's tough to say anything statistically valid about a 3rd or greater generation. Which is pretty much what we are talking about. Lot of other things floating around in the genetic pool by that point.
        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.


        • #5
          Bold Ruler? Well, I've had 3 geldings (Bold Ruler 2/3 generation) and all must've been oddballs! Mine all had a strong will and were definately beligerant in training.


          • #6
            What about Mr Prospector horses? I have had quite a few and they all seem so mellow.
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            • #7
              Furthermore, Nasrullah's son, Nashua, was perhaps THE single most famous for his toughness/stubborness (e.g. some days he wouldn't even leave the gate).
              I have a nearly 29-year-old Nashua granddaughter who has been very *opinionated* since the day we met 21 years ago (and before that as well, according to her previous owner!) I wouldn't trade her for the world.
              In loving memory of Chutney (1977 - 2008)


              • #8
                Foolish Pleasure -- SWEET??? Uh Uh! He was a mean sob, had to wear a chain over his halter noseband all the time. I absolutely adore the Nashua bloodlines I've bred and the broodmare that was a Nashua granddaughter -- very smart, mellow, etc. The Nashua son I bred too (Beldale Ball was a bit tense, but kind and the colt I had (out of a very alpha mare) was an incredible athlete and became a packer later on. I know Jig Time x Native Dancer would hurt someone, but the mare I had by him was a sweetheart, although opinionated and her son (a stallion I bred) is as easy, kind and docile as one could ask. You have to look at the bottom lines and the whole pedigree as well as how they were handled.


                • #9
                  Seems to me that what we hear about these different lines depends a lot on our sources... 'fraid I was guessing on Foolish Pleasure based upon the offspring I've seen that made nice hunters, and a very sweet filly I saw at a sale.

                  Speaking of which-- and getting back to the need to look at the whole pedigree: the 2 sweetest horses I've ever had (including the one with all the Nashua blood), were both by Speak John stallions--- the one crossed with the Nashua lines is confident, steady, and sweet. The other, Speak John x Northern Dancer x Bold Ruler, was even sweeter-- but also a much more difficult ride because she was much less confident and so quick and sensitive... which I attributed to the N.D. in her-- largely based on a few Lyphards I've ridden.

                  Anyone have more knowledge of these lines/crosses-- especially Speak John/Prince John horses? I'd love to find another like that 2nd horse-- but I bought her a long time ago (15 years)-- so the names in her pedigree have kind of fallen off the catalogue pages by now and I've been away from the TB world so long that I wouldn't have a clue of what to look for anymore.


                  • #10
                    In my experience, there certainly are certain personality traits associated with certain bloodlines, BUT...how these traits manifest themselves depends on if they come down through the sire line or the dam line. It's a proven fact that the mare has ALOT more to do with the ultimate temperament/personality of the foal than the daddy does...it's been said that the mare contributes at least 60%, compared to the stallion's 40%...but I'd go so far as to say the mare contributes up to 80%! After all, she's not only contributing the genes, but she has the raising of the baby during its most impressionable phase! I've seen an experiment in which a cross was performed, where a really gnarly-tempered stallion was bred to a total sweetheart of a mare, and the resulting foal was a very nice-minded individual. A mirror-image cross was done that same year, with a mare that was the full sister of the gnarly above-mentioned stallion (and she was a b*tch) and she was bred to an extremely sweet natured stallion...and her foal was just like her: hot as a sheriff's pistol, and would just as soon bite or kick you as look at you. (btw...interesting as the experiment was, personally I would have NEVER bred the icky-minded horses...don't care how athletic or beautiful they may have been...but that's just my personal opinion...I won't get on my breeding pet peeve soapbox here! LOL)
                    By the by, I have a mare that I raised that is Exclusive Native on top and Khalborough was the dam sire...anyone feel like venturing a guess about her personality based on that? LOL


                    • #11
                      Liz Morris (female jock who rides at Hawthorne and Arlington - good friend of the family - I *adore* her she's awesome) - swears hands down that the Storm Cat babies - his entire line - can be handfuls.

                      Very tough when not handled correctly and very sensitive. You can't bully them or rush them or they explode on you.

                      Friend has a Storm Cat grandson Ouregan, a big dark bay stallion and he's the sweetest easiest going thoroughbred stallion I've met.

                      He's also from the Mr. Prospector line (sire is Gone West) I've heard also that the Mr. P lines can be a bit iffy - guess the two lines cancelled themselves out in Ouregan's (French for Hurricane) case.

                      Windy Isle Farms
                      Peotone, Illinois
                      Home of *The Quietman (Moy Hazy Cove x Blathin Chonamara by Cloonisle Cashel)
                      Imported from Ireland 2005
                      Approved Gr.1 stallion of the CPBS


                      • #12
                        I have always heard (and experienced) that the Ribot's can be a handful.
                        A man must love a thing very much if he not only practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practices it without any hope of doing it well.--G. K. Chesterton


                        • #13
                          The Ribot's need a job. They get cranky just hanging around.
                          "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."


                          • #14
                            fish, I had a Silent Cal son (Hold Your Peace, Speak John) who was an absolute angel. Had the best manners on the planet. That's not to say he was an easy ride. He could be very strong, but that had a lot more to do with the fact he was good at his first job (race horse) and nobody consulted him on the career change (hunter). But not a dirtyl bone in his body.

                            Had a hard peek at the fences though.

                            If I had stumbled on to him later in life when I was a better rider, he easily would have been the best horse I ever owned. But he was too sensitive to take be lied to. And I lied a lot back then. (No, leave here... no there... no... yes... no)
                            Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.


                            • #15
                              my Mr P x Damascus mare is so very sweet. My Roberto x My Primce II (Euro TB) is very laid back, but VERY opinionated when she wants to be. While temperments may be at least somewhat genetic, i'll never rule out each horse's environment. for example, the breeder i ride for has 3 full siblings, a mare (the oldest), a stud, and a gelding (the baby). the stud and the gelding were raised on the family farm, and are really sweet guys. goofy at times, like to be kept busy, but very easy to work with. The mare, on the other hand, had been sent to a 'trainer' (long before I came along, thankfully) as a youngster (3, i think) to be 'trained' and now, at 7, is a huge handful, distrustful, very difficult to ride, and handling her is tricky. total opposite of her brothers (anyone see the pics i had posted of my morgan stud? this is his sister) and her daughter? a total puppydog.
                              Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch


                              • #16
                                I stood a stud for a syndicate years ago who was by Nashua, out of a Round Table mare. He was the meanest, dumbest SOB that ever drew breath. I also blame whoever raised him, because they didn't make any effort to socialize him at all, and you couldn't even turn him out, and think he'd be alright.

                                He wanted to bite, kick, or strike at you at any opportunity. They guy that got him after me called to see how I had handled him, after having him in the barn two days.

                                I said, "Charlie, did you ever dance with a fat man?"
                                When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou


                                • #17
                                  I've heard from someone witha lot of firsthand knowledge that Cure the Blues was a nasty SOB and was close to killer status. He's got Nearco 4 back on both sides, Nasrullah 3 back on dams side and Bold Ruler 2 back on dams side. Not sure how much it means, but I think that enough people have dealt with these lines over the years, and of course there are exceptions but I think there is some credance to it. Would it stop me from buying one as a hunter or a pleasure horse? No, I'd need to see the horse in person, handle it and talk to the trainer and groom to make my decision. Many times the actual sire and dam have more to do with it than even 2 or three generations back. I also agree that I take the dam more into consideration, but I have had a couple of the stallions that we stand really stamp their get temperament and personality quirk-wise . My own colt is by a stallion that consistantly throws babies that paw the ground when they want something (even though the stallion does not stand at the farm that these babies are raised at). Too funny how some traits are passed on...


                                  • #18
                                    I have to go back and check the pedigrees of our old gals...I think most had Nearco in them, but with the exception of one they where all perfect ladies - as far as the mare thing goes

                                    The Quirky one was by Krakatao (sp) who - I've been - made for difficult babies...

                                    Then we had the foals by one stallion, two full brothers and a half sister (yeah, yeah, I know, but for ease of explenation...)

                                    And all three where nuts - good jumpers but nuts! The oldest colt you couldn't brush his legs! He'd spook from his on devious thoughts! The only horse who ever made me walk home - solo. And that wasn't even far from the barn!

                                    The filly would pick matchraces with deer when you encountered them in the woods! Bold! Her way of testing saftey of new objects was to take a bite out of it - if it didn't move or bite back it was safe!

                                    And Colt #2 (mine ) was a chauvinist pig! And no, even stronger equestriennes than me - and they are NOT hard to come by - had their trouble with him. And guy, no matter how weak, had an easy ride with him!

                                    Gotta look up Gimont - the sire...

                                    But sometimes I think it is just a bunch of BS, when somebody can't or won't deal with it, it has to be the Sire, no matter how far back. Or when they have enough get, there are bound to be some rough ones around, and the mare has a lot to say about the foals behaviour!

                                    Edited to say: I stand corrected! Two of our mares did indeed go back to Nearco - Through Celadon-Kracatao...

                                    But Gimont didn't


                                    • Original Poster

                                      Both my mares are ill-mannered cows to work around but both have great hearts, performance-wise.

                                      Now I am thinking the lack of manners is a reflection of their early handling (or lack thereof) than their bloodlines!

                                      Phyllis (There She Was) has the Secretariat lines - out of a very undistinguished stallion - Cold Reception.

                                      Perturbed has the Princequillo, Intentionally, Blenheim lines. Her sire was Tequillo - not sure what he did.

                                      I don't really know that much about bloodlines - I figure they are probably pretty diluted by the time those mares were foaled!


                                      • #20
                                        My horse is a Nijinksy grandson and has most of the others mentioned above further back in his pedigree except Mr. P. He is a great horse, but it took a while to earn his trust and respect, and now he is very much MY horse, I think he is very sweet but apparently everyone else gets the ugly ears from him (including the dogs). He is super sensitive and hot, but has a huge heart and more try than any other horse I've ridden that more than makes up for his underlying crankiness. Not a beginner's horse in any way, but I wouldn't trade him for the world, I think he'd do anything for me. He is one that I've had to learn to work with though, and we've had to compromise on many things... now that we've got it all figured out though I'd definitely recommend whatever breeding made him!
                                        Here's his pedigree if anyone's interested http://www.pedigreequery.com/gallant+gesture
                                        Gallant Gesture "Liam" 1995 chestnut ottb gelding
                                        Mr. Painter "Remy" 2006 chestnut ottb gelding
                                        My Training Blog: www.dressagefundamentals.com