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Any reason to get a gelding's papers? And any way to do so?

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  • Any reason to get a gelding's papers? And any way to do so?

    I just got a 4yo TB gelding who bowed a tendon in a race on 8/2. The trainer says "free horses don't come with papers". That's his policy anyway. Would I need papers for anything? Doesn't sound like I could get them anyway, but just wondering. I have no proof of ownership, "sale" or anything else, but I can't see anyone beating down my door to come get him.
    Shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you? You are at your very best when things are worst.
    Starman

  • #2
    Papers can aid in resale, but for a gelding, I can't imagine it will make that much of a difference. If his tattoo is legible, that would be enough to identify him. A copy of his papers might be nice to have if the trainer will give that to you.

    I WOULD get a bill of sale or something from the trainer to identify that you now own the horse, though.

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    • #3
      I have heard that trainer's need a horse's (any horse will do) papers to hold a stall.

      I have taken several horses directly from the track. Sometimes it takes a while but I have always received them.

      I like know my horse comes from the Man O' War stallion line.
      A man must love a thing very much if he not only practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practices it without any hope of doing it well.--G. K. Chesterton

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      • #4
        I never received papers on any free/cheap TB geldings I've gotten, ever. And it's never been an issue.

        Bill of sale wouldn't be a bad idea, although I have to admit, I've never gotten one of those either on a free horse.
        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

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        • #5
          Why would a "free" horse make a difference for papers as far as the trainer goes. Trainer sounds grumpy and not really caring about the horse. I like papers and that's just me, not everyone does, so the sale of the horse is not dependent on papers (Usually.)
          RIP Kelly 1977-2007 "Wither thou goest, so shall I"

          "To tilt when you should withdraw is Knightly too."

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          • #6
            I would say the trainer does care about the horse, since by keeping the papers he is trying to insure that he doesn't race again.

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            • #7
              I have two of my geldings papers. I have never actually needed them for anything. I do like having them, just because. Perhaps its a pride of ownership thing. The one has an abysmal race record, the other was a war horse in every sense. One came directly to me from the track for no cost, the other through an adoption program. The third was also from a different adoption program and his were not available, although they did make me a photo copy. I don't think it is a big deal. The trainer may be one who believes the only way to assure he does not go back to racing is to withhold the papers. He may have been burned before. But like I said, I have never actually needed papers for anything with my geldings.
              Last edited by tradewind; Oct. 5, 2012, 08:02 PM. Reason: typ

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              • #8
                I actually paid $500 for a horse I could have gotten for free, just to get his papers. Even though I don't intend to sell this horse, I always like to have them. It is proof of ownership, proof of age and possibly some history as well. I've looked at a few horses for sale without papers, that were arguably older than advertised.
                "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JoZ View Post
                  I just got a 4yo TB gelding who bowed a tendon in a race on 8/2. The trainer says "free horses don't come with papers". That's his policy anyway. Would I need papers for anything? Doesn't sound like I could get them anyway, but just wondering. I have no proof of ownership, "sale" or anything else, but I can't see anyone beating down my door to come get him.
                  Originally posted by kcmel View Post
                  I would say the trainer does care about the horse, since by keeping the papers he is trying to insure that he doesn't race again.
                  Precisely.
                  There is only one thing and one thing only that a TB needs papers for and that's racing. You can still breed or show them or do anything else you want except race them.

                  Any trainer who trusts someones word not to race one and lets the papers go is a fool. Most trainers who want the horse not to race will never do that.
                  "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
                  Michael Gill-2010

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                  • #10
                    Technically, the papers belong to the horse and go with him (it's even written ON the papers, along with a note that you are not allowed to charge for them.) So just based on the registry rules, if you get rid of the horses, the papers go with it.

                    With a gelding, no, there's probably not any REASON to have them if they're tattooed and it's legible. They're not proof of ownership and you obviously won't be having him inspected for a warmblood breeding program where they'd want papers. I think there are SOME shows that want papers on horses, but I don't think that's especially common.

                    Personally, I wouldn't take a registered horse without their papers (and that includes things like the proof of bleed papers stapled to Lucky's.) The old owner has no legitimate use for them and if they want to guarantee the horse never races again, they should just kill him or keep him if they're THAT worried/paranoid.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                      Technically, the papers belong to the horse and go with him (it's even written ON the papers, along with a note that you are not allowed to charge for them.) So just based on the registry rules, if you get rid of the horses, the papers go with it.

                      With a gelding, no, there's probably not any REASON to have them if they're tattooed and it's legible. They're not proof of ownership and you obviously won't be having him inspected for a warmblood breeding program where they'd want papers. I think there are SOME shows that want papers on horses, but I don't think that's especially common.

                      Personally, I wouldn't take a registered horse without their papers (and that includes things like the proof of bleed papers stapled to Lucky's.) The old owner has no legitimate use for them and if they want to guarantee the horse never races again, they should just kill him or keep him if they're THAT worried/paranoid.
                      No, not really... JC is the governing registry for TB RACING and BREEDING only. So if the horse is sold to a non-racing/ non-breeding home, it really no longer concerns the JC. So the trainer can pretty much do whatever he wants with those papers at that point, although the proper thing to do is to return them to JC and record as "sold without pedigree" to really ensure that it doesnt turn up in an entry....

                      My current horse was reported as sold without pedigree and in my eyes, it is the most responsible thing to do...

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                      • #12
                        I once gave the papers to someone who promised they would not race the horse again. He had a bow. Two years later , much to my dismay he showed up in the entry box at a lesser track. I watched him run 4 th for a bottom tag.( He had been a stake horse when I had him)The charts said he had been vanned off. I found out later they destroyed him that night. You do not get papers from me.
                        https://www.facebook.com/russellracingstable

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                        • #13
                          I think it wouldn't hurt to ask for a photocopy. Papers are absolutely NOT needed to get stalls at our track, it was a ghost town all year.

                          Maybe contact the previous owner? I've heard he's a bit of an odd duck, but maybe he'll work with you.

                          We've not really had anyone we've sold to ask for papers on a gelding, but we've provided them. A showbarn that consigns horses for us always asks for the papers, but as they frequently get unraced - not tattooed - horses from us, I think it's to be able to prove to the people that THEY sell to that the horse is who they say it is (age, breeding, etc.)
                          It's a uterus, not a clown car. - Sayyedati

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                          • #14
                            If I was looking for a mare with the intention of registering her with one of the Warmblood registries, then obviously I would only look at mares the papers were available from.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kcmel View Post
                              I would say the trainer does care about the horse, since by keeping the papers he is trying to insure that he doesn't race again.
                              But, he's willing to "sell" the papers. . . if you read between the lines. Free horses don't come with papers, then what do papers cost?
                              RIP Kelly 1977-2007 "Wither thou goest, so shall I"

                              "To tilt when you should withdraw is Knightly too."

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Langfuhr View Post
                                No, not really... JC is the governing registry for TB RACING and BREEDING only. So if the horse is sold to a non-racing/ non-breeding home, it really no longer concerns the JC. So the trainer can pretty much do whatever he wants with those papers at that point, although the proper thing to do is to return them to JC and record as "sold without pedigree" to really ensure that it doesnt turn up in an entry....

                                My current horse was reported as sold without pedigree and in my eyes, it is the most responsible thing to do...
                                This will work for geldings, but AFAIK mares "sold without pedigree" cannot even be bred for JC registered foals and most WB registries want the original papers so this could cause a problem in the future if somebody wants to breed her.


                                Christa

                                Who does have the papers on the mare I got free last year.

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                                • #17
                                  I buy, school, and resell 4-6 horses a year, so I'm not a big time dealer by any stretch of the imagination. About half of those are "unregistered" or "grade" horses simply because I don't have papers, even if they are obviously purebreds of some breed. If I can get papers, I always want them, especially if the target market for the horse might be a teenage girl. They love having the papers (not that others don't).

                                  For Thoroughbreds, I won't look at a mare or colt/stallion if the papers aren't coming with them. Geldings it would be your choice. If you are planning to keep them, it wouldn't matter, but if you plan to resell (IME anyway) most buyers want the papers if they are registered horses. Other people's experience may differ. And I've gotten papers on every horse that I got off the track for the last 6 years or so. Even the free ones. I don't ask about papers when I'm calling. When I decide to take the horse (free or paid), I tell them when I'm coming back with the trailer/money ask that they have the papers for me at that time. I've only had one trainer quibble about it. I liked the horse, a gelding, but he was a $250 purchase price, 15.3 hand, decent but not spectacular mover, super quiet disposition, definite teenage girl local show prospect. I simply told him that I would not take the horse without papers. He didn't quibble anymore.

                                  If they really don't want them to race, I agree with what someone else said, they should put them down or keep them. Otherwise, it's really not their business what I do with MY horse. And I trained race horses for years. Of course, everything that I needed to retire from racing, I made sure they were schooled well enough that the people who were buying them were more than likely not buying them to possibly race. I know not every trainer can do that--they train race horses and that's it. I could do it myself, so it didn't really cost me anything but some time and energy.

                                  Sheila

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Flypony View Post
                                    I once gave the papers to someone who promised they would not race the horse again. He had a bow. Two years later , much to my dismay he showed up in the entry box at a lesser track. I watched him run 4 th for a bottom tag.( He had been a stake horse when I had him)The charts said he had been vanned off. I found out later they destroyed him that night. You do not get papers from me.
                                    So it would be better if he ended up another anonymous bay with a half-legible tattoo in a pen waiting for the truck? Unknowns with old injuries don't have a huge amount of value to the average "good home". Heck, as picky as some buyers are, known quantities with full histories from the track had better have flawless legs on them to be worth more than 'free.'

                                    Shelia's right, you want control over what becomes of a horse, kill it or keep it. Otherwise sell with everything that goes along with it and forget about it. If you do not own a horse, what's done with it is none of your business. TB foal papers belong to a particular horse, not the person. For a world-beating gelding already going in a non-racing discipline I'd think about it. A mare with no history or proof of identity I wouldn't look at in any breed.
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by kcmel View Post
                                      I would say the trainer does care about the horse, since by keeping the papers he is trying to insure that he doesn't race again.
                                      In addition, he could have sent the horse off with the kill buyers and made a few hundred bucks, but gave him away. The only reason to do that is to give the horse a chance with someone the trainer felt would do well by that horse.
                                      "Random capitAlization really Makes my day." -- AndNirina

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                                      • #20
                                        Though I agree that the “need” for the Jockey Club Registration, “Papers” doesn’t necessary add value to a gelding or required for other disciplines. But I understand and appreciate why the new owners would want them. It “validates” the horses lineage, rather then a tattooed number under their lip that can’t be “hung on the wall” and not nearly has tangible as the nicely done Certificate Of Foal Registration. Myself and others in the industry have petitioned the Jockey Club to issue in a different color, sport/pleasure use papers for a nominal fee. I just don’t see why this would be such a difficult thing. Load the printer with a different colored paper and press print. But they pontificate how the industry must look after its own.

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