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Any reason to get a gelding's papers? And any way to do so?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Chestnut Run View Post
    I buy, school, and resell 4-6 horses a year, so I'm not a big time dealer by any stretch of the imagination. About half of those are "unregistered" or "grade" horses simply because I don't have papers, even if they are obviously purebreds of some breed. If I can get papers, I always want them, especially if the target market for the horse might be a teenage girl. They love having the papers (not that others don't).

    For Thoroughbreds, I won't look at a mare or colt/stallion if the papers aren't coming with them. Geldings it would be your choice. If you are planning to keep them, it wouldn't matter, but if you plan to resell (IME anyway) most buyers want the papers if they are registered horses. Other people's experience may differ. And I've gotten papers on every horse that I got off the track for the last 6 years or so. Even the free ones. I don't ask about papers when I'm calling. When I decide to take the horse (free or paid), I tell them when I'm coming back with the trailer/money ask that they have the papers for me at that time. I've only had one trainer quibble about it. I liked the horse, a gelding, but he was a $250 purchase price, 15.3 hand, decent but not spectacular mover, super quiet disposition, definite teenage girl local show prospect. I simply told him that I would not take the horse without papers. He didn't quibble anymore.

    If they really don't want them to race, I agree with what someone else said, they should put them down or keep them. Otherwise, it's really not their business what I do with MY horse. And I trained race horses for years. Of course, everything that I needed to retire from racing, I made sure they were schooled well enough that the people who were buying them were more than likely not buying them to possibly race. I know not every trainer can do that--they train race horses and that's it. I could do it myself, so it didn't really cost me anything but some time and energy.

    Sheila
    Good Post

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    • #22
      Originally posted by danceronice View Post
      Technically, the papers belong to the horse and go with him (it's even written ON the papers, along with a note that you are not allowed to charge for them.) So just based on the registry rules, if you get rid of the horses, the papers go with it.

      With a gelding, no, there's probably not any REASON to have them if they're tattooed and it's legible. They're not proof of ownership and you obviously won't be having him inspected for a warmblood breeding program where they'd want papers. I think there are SOME shows that want papers on horses, but I don't think that's especially common.

      Personally, I wouldn't take a registered horse without their papers (and that includes things like the proof of bleed papers stapled to Lucky's.) The old owner has no legitimate use for them and if they want to guarantee the horse never races again, they should just kill him or keep him if they're THAT worried/paranoid.
      Don’t know much about racing or selling Thoroughbreds in Michigan. But I have owned and sold Thoroughbreds is just about every other racing jurisdiction in the US. The papers are only required to “travel” with the horse for “racing purposes”. There are no Jockey Club police.

      A “bleeder’s Cert” is not required to be attached to the Papers. A bleeders Vet Certificate is meaningless. It is given as a “matter of course” these days and has been for years. Trust me I have been doing this for a long time. I would give explanation but many people find that too time consuming and label it as…….

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      • #23
        No one heard this from this poster but if you really want a horse’s papers just do the following;
        Call the Jockey Club ask for the registration department. Tell them you need to replace your horse’s papers, the term is a “duplicate registration”. They will ask what happened to the original. Tell them they got discarded, thrown out with old files by accident, lost in a fire, flood, dog ate them. You can’t say I don’t know or the former owner would not give them up. You will then have to send them a letter stating the same along with a check for $150. It is important to know that the horse was NOT reported to the JC as “sold without pedigree” before doing this. Very few people report this. But to make sure you can call the JC before requesting a duplicate certificate and say you are looking at a horse and ask if there any restrictions on it’s papers. There are no Jockey Club police and if your intentions are honorable there will be no repercussions.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by gumtree View Post
          No one heard this from this poster but if you really want a horse’s papers just do the following;
          Call the Jockey Club ask for the registration department. Tell them you need to replace your horse’s papers, the term is a “duplicate registration”. They will ask what happened to the original. Tell them they got discarded, thrown out with old files by accident, lost in a fire, flood, dog ate them. You can’t say I don’t know or the former owner would not give them up. You will then have to send them a letter stating the same along with a check for $150. It is important to know that the horse was NOT reported to the JC as “sold without pedigree” before doing this. Very few people report this. But to make sure you can call the JC before requesting a duplicate certificate and say you are looking at a horse and ask if there any restrictions on it’s papers. There are no Jockey Club police and if your intentions are honorable there will be no repercussions.
          It requires a signature from the last known owner. Without that it's not going to happen.

          As was said before racing is all papers are needed for. People who are that insistent on papers that they don't need are usually dishonest about what their intentions are for the horse. These are people any decent trainer worth their salt knows better than to deal with if it's a horse he or she cares about.
          "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
          Michael Gill-2010

          Comment


          • #25
            With all of the for "thoroughbred only" horse shows that are going around, don't you need some sort of proof of who your horse is (papers, JC ID, etc) in order to show him? This gives the JC papers a little bit more value to the new owner than previously.

            Comment


            • #26
              At most TB shows a tattoo is all you need. For war horses classes etc, a copy of the horses race record is also needed.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by tradewind View Post
                At most TB shows a tattoo is all you need. For war horses classes etc, a copy of the horses race record is also needed.
                Which is great if it's one of the shows where the horse MUST have been at minimum in race training, but some horses don't get tattooed.

                And the papers do not say "for racing purposes." The papers are proof of the horse's identity.

                If you don't trust a person THAT much, don't sell them a horse. If you sell a horse, all its records go with it or YOU can be presumed to be hiding something. That or one of the wack jobs who think you can dictate terms of what's done with a piece of personal property (which is ultimately all a domestic animal is) once you cashed the check for it. I can sell a GP jumper to someone who SAYS they want to jump it. They're free to destroy its hocks trying to teach it to slide like a reining horse. It's their horse now, they could shoot it and barbecue it and it's none of my business any more. If I cared that much like it was a child, I'd keep it. Otherwise, once a business asset is gone, it's no longer any of my concern.

                And people selling animals as grade (which is all it ends up amounting to) at least need to not complain when unidentified animals wind up at sales, especially geldings. One unregistered gelding is much like any other, and those without clean legs don't have a huge resale market unless someone cares about that particular horse. If they were never tattooed/branded and they don't have papers along with a name, no one can track them if anyone cares.

                If you're DESPERATELY sure that the most horrible thing that could happen to a horse is it races again somewhere, 1. kill it yourself and 2. consider another line of work that's less a business.
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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  To be honest, I don't think it's important enough for me to pursue. His tattoo is legible. I already own his mother -- she was dumped when he was weaned, so I followed his career. When I read that he was "pulled up, vanned off" I put out the word to the right people. He was actually given to someone else but he didn't work out as a birthday present for an 11 year old. I didn't see THAT coming. So now he is here. I don't know if he will ever be sound but he is happy. Everything else is just opinion and guessing (at motives, intentions, etc.). Today is the local kill auction and I don't have to watch for him or pay for him, and for that I'm grateful. In fact I think I'll go kiss him on the nose.
                  Shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you? You are at your very best when things are worst.
                  Starman

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                  • #29
                    So, let me get this straight, the owner cared so much about the horse he wouldn't let the horse go without money for the papers. So, hence the new owner could have easily sold the horse to killers and made a small profit (cause the horse was Free.) If horse had had papers he was worth more in a resale to a ligit buyer than a sale to the killers.

                    Sorry, I'm not buying the "cared about the horse." I am very happy you got the horse and it sounds like you may care a great deal about him, Kudos to you. Happy ending
                    RIP Kelly 1977-2007 "Wither thou goest, so shall I"

                    "To tilt when you should withdraw is Knightly too."

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                    • #30
                      JoZ said:
                      To be honest, I don't think it's important enough for me to pursue. His tattoo is legible. I already own his mother -- she was dumped when he was weaned, so I followed his career....................In fact I think I'll go kiss him on the nose.
                      Good on you, JoZ! He and his mamma are lucky horses. And I bet you didn't expect your thread to morph into one about whether racehorses done racing should be sold with or without papers!

                      Profidia said:
                      People who are that insistent on papers that they don't need are usually dishonest about what their intentions are for the horse.
                      Really? Dishonest? Wow.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Danceronice..I was merely answering the question in the previous post about what are the rerquirements for TB shows..Having exibited, judged, and put on a few, I answered the question. It is not needed for most..and if the horse is not tatooed, some will indeed make an exception. You do not have to be hostile to me in your response. Certain adoption programs do not ever release papers on a gelding, and will provide papers for short periods of time for people with mares who are being inspected. Adoption agreements can also be used at these shows. Further more, many geldings have been dumped at New Holland and other auctions with papers. Papers do not ensure the safety of any horse. Many trainers are also now encouraged not to release the papers to buyers to try to ensure the horse does not return to racing. Whether or not you agree with the policy does not mean that the policy has not been encouraged alot in recent years by various adoption groups, TB transition advocates, and certain track managements.

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                        • #32
                          I would say the trainer does care about the horse, since by keeping the papers he is trying to insure that he doesn't race again.
                          TRUE


                          I actually paid $500 for a horse I could have gotten for free, just to get his papers. Even though I don't intend to sell this horse, I always like to have them. It is proof of ownership, proof of age and possibly some history as well. I've looked at a few horses for sale without papers, that were arguably older than advertised.
                          FALSE...
                          Tattoes prove Age Name and ablitey to track race history name pedigree...Papers show the registration # which is the Tattoo...

                          Call the Jockey Club ask for the registration department. Tell them you need to replace your horse’s papers, the term is a “duplicate registration”. They will ask what happened to the original. Tell them they got discarded, thrown out with old files by accident, lost in a fire, flood, dog ate them.
                          Yup Gumtree and you also have to provide a Notorized document and a bill of sale if you are not the last owner of record...been there done that..works if you are the current owner listed w/ JC or thru a public Auction and or trainer of record..not if you bought the horse w/ no bill of sale...oh and alot of trainers are smart they mark the bill of sale..their copy and yours..Sold W/O Papers....Its gelding with a tattoo...unless its a Mare you plan to breed or sell @ Auction as a Broodmare or a Breeding Stallion the tatoos work...

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Just to make sure everyone knows that this, " It is proof of ownership," is absolutely not true. TB papers from TJC are not proof of ownership and never will be. According to TJC, a bill of sale is proof of ownership.

                            I didn't get papers with either of my geldings -- didn't even ask for them. Yes, if they were offered, I would have taken them just to have, but they won't help with much, if anything.

                            TJC will help as much as they can if you need to prove your horse is a TB for a show, etc., especially one of the shows they sponsor.

                            Technically, you don't even need papers with a mare/stallion to register a foal with TJC. They better be who you say they are, though
                            "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."

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