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2013 Kentucky Derby 139th Edition: congrats to Orb (Shug, Joel, Phipps/Janney)

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    The Daily Racing Form looked at the 20 horses just run in the 2012 Derby and applied the point system unveiled by CD today - link here for the list

    Most certainly excluded would've been:
    Liaison with 15-points yet $393,000 in graded money
    Done Talking with 1-point; $311,000 in graded money
    Trinniberg with 0-points; $324,500 in graded

    One nugget gleaned is this:

    Churchill Downs officials said they expect a score of about 40 points to qualify a horse for the Kentucky Derby.

    Comment


    • #22
      This seems over-thought and silly.

      I'm most disappointed that fillies and foreign horses will have a very difficult time qualifying.

      Comment


      • #23
        And the problem with the old system was what again?

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by halo View Post
          And the problem with the old system was what again?
          Nothing (except that it required 2 gates).
          www.laurienberenson.com

          Comment


          • #25
            I think it will still require 2 gates. Theres nothing to say that 20 horses wont line up again. I didnt see anything where it says a horse with 0 points couldnt run, just that the entry will be determined on the most points. And Im sure CD will stuff 20 horses in the gates again, more horses, more handle.

            Or did they limit the field and I missed that?

            Comment


            • #26
              Nope, still a field of 20. I hope they have figured out what to do in the even of a tie in points to determine the last spots in the gate because I'm sure that will come up. I think the old system was flawed in the fact that horses could win insignificant races with a jacked up purse and get it, but I think there are alot of problems with this system as well. Instead of restricting it to certain races, and so FEW races (pretty much telling trainers how they have to train their horses up to the race), I think is a load of crap. A point system is fine but they are going about it all sorts of wrong. Especially eliminating turf races because plenty of horses use them to prep. I think it's wrong to force trainers how to train their horses and I can see alot more horses getting injured along the way here being pressured into more frequent and longer races to get in.

              Comment


              • #27
                This is the stupidest load of BS I've seen regarding the Derby. I can't even think of a nicer way to put it. I hope it blows up in their face.

                And newsflash, Churchill Downs-- NO ONE CARES ABOUT HORSE RACING ANYMORE*. Nascar fans are not going to flock to horse racing because the championship series is like theirs.

                Wanna bring fans back to racing? Improve racing's public image and keep horses running beyond their 3 y/o year. Telling trainers that they have to somehow force their horses to conform to an even less flexible and potentially more arduous schedule isn't going to help either of those points.

                *Besides horsemen and horse players and the handful of remaining fans.
                Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                Comment


                • #28
                  And... they basically screwed the "little man" with this system, too. Bye bye feel good Kentucky Derby stories...
                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by halo View Post
                    I think it will still require 2 gates. Theres nothing to say that 20 horses wont line up again. I didnt see anything where it says a horse with 0 points couldnt run, just that the entry will be determined on the most points. And Im sure CD will stuff 20 horses in the gates again, more horses, more handle.

                    Or did they limit the field and I missed that?
                    Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to say that there wouldn't still be two gates--just that that was the only thing wrong with the old system.
                    www.laurienberenson.com

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Glimmerglass View Post

                      From those 36-races there will be a points system interwoven into four "seasons" or phases. For a host of reasons the CD folks think emulating a NASCAR type of program will endear fans to the sport and make then follow the path to the Derby more.
                      As a "Former" NASCAR fan, I can tell you they lost many fans, including myself when the France family tried to get more fans with the ridiculous, asinine new point system.

                      Then every year they'd tweak it more and more when the first changes turned out much less than expected.

                      I see Racing headed in the same direction. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
                      MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
                      http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

                      Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                        Considering the Derby's 12 furlongs on honest-to-God dirt, I don't see WHY they should include shorter races or more grass races.
                        I know it was a slip of the fingers to put the Derby at 12F, but if Churchill continues to allow 20 horses in the race, the extra 2F might allow some horses to recover from traffic trouble. The thing I like least about the Derby is that frequently the best horse doesn't have a chance.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by halo View Post
                          And the problem with the old system was what again?
                          EXACTLY!!!!
                          So can someone explain to me like a 4 year old why this purposal is warrented?

                          I think big Buda needs to get back the Golden Corral nosh a bit and rethink this!
                          Aefvue Farm Ft.Lauderdale

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Andrew View Post
                            EXACTLY!!!!
                            So can someone explain to me like a 4 year old why this purposal is warrented?

                            I think big Buda needs to get back the Golden Corral nosh a bit and rethink this!
                            Warranted? No reason. Implemented? To screw over their competitors. In other words, because they can.
                            McDowell Racing Stables

                            Home Away From Home

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Initial feedback from Hawthorne and Breeders' Cup:

                              Conspicuously absent from the list of qualifying races is the Illinois Derby at Hawthorne. A Grade 3 worth at least $500,000 every year except one (2011) since 1991, the Illinois Derby has failed to produce a noteworthy Triple Crown horse the last couple seasons, but has done so several times in the last decade.

                              “I just found out this morning,” said Hawthorne president Tim Carey. “It’s mind-blowing to me that we could be left out of the mix. Churchill Downs, I guess they control racing in the United States these days. We’re still going to have the race. We’re not going anywhere.”

                              The changes also reduce the stature of the Breeders’ Cup Juvenile as a Derby qualifying race. Jim Gluckson, a spokesman for Breeders’ Cup, said: “We have seen the new Derby qualifying points system today and are reviewing it. If we have some suggestions and comments on it, we’ll forward those to Churchill Downs.”
                              The defense Churchill Downs is giving for the change:

                              He said the graded-stakes earnings system has given tracks incentives to create races that were not ideal in determining which horses should be eligible to run in the Derby.

                              “We [Churchill] should be making sure we have the proper path to the Derby,” Flanery said. “It’s all about making sure that on the first Saturday of May we have the best horses, the best competition, the best story, the best event possible.”
                              I'd be two faced if I said that I haven't concurred in the past there should be a means to downgrade the 2-yr old efforts vs. 3-yr spring efforts from having the same weight.

                              Further I've said I'm not a big fan of sprint races on the 'Road to the Derby' as a litmus test either. So by CD addressing both is positive, however only to a degree as the other narrowing actions are almost more bad than good. I think discounting filly races, only recognizing effectively a tight knit group of graded races, and discounting altogether turf races (which generally are longer in distance) is very shortsighted.

                              Outside of the glaring Illinois Derby decision why, for example, nix a race like the Keeneland run $100,000 Transylvania (G3-T) from having any implication? It's at 1 1/16th mil on the turf and occurs during the hotly contested pre-Derby run-up period their fixated on. A developing 3-yr old horse can get to stretch out - yet now no would be Derby horse will ever run in that.

                              The point system might suggest simplicity but honestly outside of a very hard core number of fans few will put together a top 20 list until the end of December. From there tracking the graded races (and the corresponding money available from graded earnings) isn't exactly rocket science to grasp and follow.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                It's been all over the news here. Not many are happy with it, including some of the Churchill shareholders and others interviewed. I predict there will be changes...but when? Who knows. They'll probably try to see how it works next year and then revise if the outcry is big enough.
                                Caitlin
                                *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                                http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  If the BC juvie winner doesn't get in, especially in a year where the race was held at Churchill there may be a riot.
                                  McDowell Racing Stables

                                  Home Away From Home

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                                    If the BC juvie winner doesn't get in, especially in a year where the race was held at Churchill there may be a riot.
                                    That's exactly what I think will take to change it. One instance of feel good horse, filly, big race winner, etc. with the public behind them that would have qualified under previous rules and suddenly ineligible for the race? Massive backpeddling and changes.
                                    Caitlin
                                    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                                    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      There was no reason for this other than some subversive reason that Churchill Downs wants to screw some other racetracks.

                                      This is the stupidest frigging thing Ive ever heard of in my life. Just who do they think they are to screw with the most important race of the racing season? The most historical? The only one anyone outside of racing has even heard of. Who died and made them the racing god? Who gives them the right to determine what races at what tracks determine eligibility. Some frigging grass race in Europe??? Eliminating fillies?? WTF????

                                      Its not like theres been 4 or 5 or 10 horses that were eliminated from running because there was too many entries. The old system worked just fine. If they wanted to limit the field to 14 horses the graded earnings system would still work just fine. But of course they wont do that, they would lose to much money by not packing the gate with 20 horses.

                                      I guess now CD will hire someone at $100,000 a year to tally up points.

                                      The Derby has always been about Dreams. Dreams like the Mine That Bird people, trucking their pony from New Mexico to Kentucky to run in the biggest race of their life with a horse no one even heard of. A horse like Canonero, the crooked legged $1200 yearling that ran in Venezuela before coming up to Churchill, being ignored by everyone until he shocked the world with his win.

                                      No more dreams now....gotta follow the score card issued by Churchill Downs. NASCAR, here we come. Start your engines!
                                      Last edited by halo; Jun. 15, 2012, 06:15 PM.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Glimmerglass View Post
                                        The Daily Racing Form looked at the 20 horses just run in the 2012 Derby and applied the point system unveiled by CD today - link here for the list

                                        Most certainly excluded would've been:
                                        Liaison with 15-points yet $393,000 in graded money
                                        Done Talking with 1-point; $311,000 in graded money
                                        Trinniberg with 0-points; $324,500 in graded

                                        One nugget gleaned is this:
                                        The fallacy of this is that if this moronic system had been in place before this Derby that the trainers would have had to chose a different path of races to get to the Derby. So it means nothing.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                          Which is ridiculous, because the Remsen has traditionally been at the very top of the two year races. This has a huge potential to change the way two year olds and three years carry out their campaigns. And it will have an enormous impact on tracks.

                                          Why couldn't they just put in a point system that gives a different number of points for the grades of races. G1 is worth x points; G2, x-5; G-3 x-10. That way it wouldn't look as if CD is picking and choosing among its competitors.
                                          Not to mention the Remson is on DIRT and the race at Keeneland is on POLY. But Im sure that means nothing to CD because it doesnt fit into their agenda.

                                          Comment

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