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2013 Kentucky Derby 139th Edition: congrats to Orb (Shug, Joel, Phipps/Janney)

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  • Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
    Does anyone know if Orb has the pedigree/talent to go all the way?? It's been 40 years since Secretariat. The last TC winner was 10 years before I was born. I'd LOVE to see some one win it and Shug/The Phipps seem so deserving.
    Dunno. but here is his pedigree.
    http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pe...ts_indicator=Y

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Vibrant Black View Post
      Yes they were. Flash nosebands are quite common, and the rubber figure-8 noseband is the new *in style* of racetrack noseband.
      imo unless you need a shadow roll why a noseband in a TB racer at all?
      Ever galloped a horse who likes to gape his mouth and play with the bit? You still have to steer and it's a lot easier when their mouth is closed. Why a noseband with English riding?
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      • Originally posted by danceronice View Post
        Ever galloped a horse who likes to gape his mouth and play with the bit? You still have to steer and it's a lot easier when their mouth is closed. Why a noseband with English riding?
        Exercise gear is different than race equipment. Draw reins are used to gallop horses but not to race.
        I noticed when RA was bought & changed trainers to SA, he put a figure8 on her for her 4yo year. Guess what? she stopped winning.
        Obviously, some horses will need special gear. but to put it on just because it's the fashion?
        Tongue ties? Why not just adjust the bit further up into the mouth as Orb (and Ruffian) wore it? The British & other "traditional type" racing/training peoples do it that way as well.
        Why not? It's the today's backside tradition.

        Comment


        • Rachel was bought before the Oaks and Steve Asmussen was her trainer for the Preakness. If he was trying to be "fashionable", he waited about a year to do it.

          More likely, she had issues and she lost a step. The change in gear may have been in response to a symptom but wasn't the disease.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Vibrant Black View Post
            Exercise gear is different than race equipment. Draw reins are used to gallop horses but not to race.
            I noticed when RA was bought & changed trainers to SA, he put a figure8 on her for her 4yo year. Guess what? she stopped winning.

            hmmm.... Here I thought they just raced her guts out ... Who knew it was just a little noseband that ended her career?


            Obviously, some horses will need special gear. but to put it on just because it's the fashion?
            Tongue ties? Why not just adjust the bit further up into the mouth as Orb (and Ruffian) wore it? The British & other "traditional type" racing/training peoples do it that way as well.
            Why not? It's the today's backside tradition.


            You must have some darn good inside information to know that trainers are using certain equipment simply because it is in style. Perhaps the trainers have ridden enough runaways in their day that they don't want to mess with it, they put the noseband on right away. Or maybe they are tired of the spooky ones and throw a shadow roll on all of them. Everyone tolerates different things and prefers different equipment, and when you have stables across the US, you simply give your staff a standard set of gear to use.

            Personally, all mine will go in a tongue tie unless it upsets them. I prefer to keep them in a simple dee bit, I don't like ring bits. That's my thing.

            "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester

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            • Originally posted by Pronzini View Post
              Rachel was bought before the Oaks and Steve Asmussen was her trainer for the Preakness. If he was trying to be "fashionable", he waited about a year to do it.

              More likely, she had issues and she lost a step. The change in gear may have been in response to a symptom but wasn't the disease.
              Never said it was the only reason. The work a trainer has put into a horse will "carry over", obviously for a while.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Angelico View Post
                <snip>Personally, all mine will go in a tongue tie unless it upsets them. I prefer to keep them in a simple dee bit, I don't like ring bits. That's my thing.
                A simply D is fine. Many other bits are fine. Did you ever just 'try' shortening the cheekpieces for the bit?
                There is the ring bit and combined with the - don't recall the name, it's that bit stabilizer/riser strap - Seattle Slew wore one of them.
                Hey. Im not trying start arguing: just seems that many peeps forgetting that sometime old ways are still good&useful too. I used to alway try what my bro said: KISS.
                Peace! & Cheers. OK?

                Edited cause I just reread & saw you don't like ring bits. Sorry!
                Last edited by Vibrant Black; May. 5, 2013, 05:57 PM. Reason: added information

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                • Originally posted by Vibrant Black View Post
                  Never said it was the only reason. The work a trainer has put into a horse will "carry over", obviously for a while.
                  Whoa.
                  McDowell Racing Stables

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                  • Originally posted by Vibrant Black View Post
                    A simply D is fine. Many other bits are fine. Did you ever just 'try' shortening the cheekpieces for the bit?
                    There is the ring bit and combined with the - don't recall the name, it's that bit stabilizer/riser strap - Seattle Slew wore one of them.
                    Hey. Im not trying start arguing: just seems that many peeps forgetting that sometime old ways are still good&useful too. I used to alway try what my bro said: KISS.
                    Peace! & Cheers. OK?

                    Edited cause I just reread & saw you don't like ring bits. Sorry!

                    Shortening the cheek pieces? I always thought a bridle was either properly adjusted or it wasn't... I always *try to* have my bridles properly adjusted.... I doubt that alone will keep one from displacing. Now consider that I'm working with cheap horses that need every edge they can get, not Orb.

                    Agree, cheers.

                    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester

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                    • Original Poster

                      NBC is well rewarded with ratings in a year with so many story lines and no overwhelming favorite: overnight rating was a 10.4, NBC said, equaling the best rating for the broadcast in 21 years.

                      Dare we talk about a Triple Crown this year? I wasn't entertaining when Animal Kingdom won it nor when I'll Have Another - neither had the chops in my view (regardless the ultimate circumstances that derailed both) to take the Crown. Orb? He does.

                      Shug says that Orb is in great shape for the Preakness

                      McGaughey is not one to oversell his horses, but his confidence in Orb is radiating off him. He has repeatedly remarked that the reason Orb was even in the Derby was because of how he kept moving forward this winter at Gulfstream Park, and McGaughey said he believed Orb could continue his top form coming back in two weeks in the Preakness.

                      “The thing that has amazed me is how well he’s come out of his races,” McGaughey said. “He hasn’t been overcooked. I’d be disappointed if he didn’t run the same as he did yesterday.”

                      There has not been a Triple Crown winner since Affirmed in 1978.

                      “I’d like the target on me. I can take it,” McGaughey said matter-of-factly. “I’m enjoying this experience.

                      “This is a position I’ve wanted to be in for 30 some-odd years.”
                      Orb got a Beyer Speed Figure of 104.

                      Again - who will Orb face in Baltimore? A decent field but none with the momentum as Orb. From the Derby it looks like: Oxbow, Will Take Charge, Goldencents, Mylute and Itsmyluckyday are possible. Also Illinois Derby winner Departing. Plus maybe Bellarmine, Fear the Kitten, and Govenor Charlie.

                      Pletcher Derby runners Revolutionary and Overanalyze will go to the Belmont so too Chad Brown trained Normandy Invasion.

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                      • Original Poster

                        Per this tweet on 2nd place finisher Golden Soul

                        Dallas Stewart said Golden Soul will bypass Preakness in favor of Belmont stakes. @HRTVinsider

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                        • Original Poster

                          Impressive turnout and wagering at Keeneland where they held a Derby party ($5 admission) to watch simulcasts of the racing an hour away at Churchill Downs. The inviting atmosphere at Keeneland and easy-in-and-out makes a lot of sense an alternative to CD.

                          Keeneland hosted 18,687 fans for its 19th annual Kentucky Derby Day celebration on Saturday.

                          The Derby Day party, held under partly cloudy skies and mild temperatures, featured picnics in the paddock, live music, pony rides and children’s activities, and a sold-out Derby Bash at the Keeneland Entertainment Center.

                          Fans at Keeneland wagered $1,836,973 on the Run for the Roses.

                          Comment


                          • Interesting article from the Bloodhorse, "Finally the Right Horse",
                            http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ky-derby-glory.

                            Also note Mr. Janney putting the Kentucky Derby into perspective and his philosophy, now THAT is old school! I know the theory is that they are so rich they don't need to run their horses, but isn't it refreshing especially since they have been breeding and running (Phipps and Janneys) horses in the same family for about 200 years!


                            http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...rb-malibu-moon

                            "Let the horse take him where he needs to go", positively archaic!
                            "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

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                            • Original Poster

                              In case it was lost - although not the outcome desired - Rosie Napravnik's second attempt to become the first female jockey to win fell short, but Mylute's fifth place was the best finish ever by a female jockey in the Kentucky Derby.

                              A few bits and pieces post-Derby

                              Third-place Normandy Invasion will skip the Preakness and point toward Saratoga’s Travers Stakes. “I don’t know what I’ll do between now and then,” said trainer Chad Brown.
                              So maybe no Belmont even for Normandy Invasion.

                              D. Wayne Lukas is quick to praise the winning connections and despite being a competitor he can stand back and be in awe:

                              Lukas said Orb’s rivals will have to get better to beat him in Baltimore. Orb came from about 20 lengths back to make a monster move around the far turn and through the stretch.

                              “I think the Preakness will be the biggest hurdle for him for the Triple Crown,” he said. “If he gets by that, he gets to go back home to Belmont and run right out of his stall… He’s got the pedigree and he’s got a style that really equates to winning these things. The way he finishes his races, starting back to the Florida Derby and now this one, is going to make him awful tough.”

                              Lukas thought the sloppy track conditions hampered his horses, but also said, “I think the best horse won, dry or not. Any time a horse comes home the last quarter like he did, you’re going to win probably a Derby.

                              “It was a wonderful victory for them. I said all week that there’s a certain amount of karma in this race that rewards people who have been stalwarts in the industry. It seems like the racing gods look down and say, ‘This year we’re going to give it to Stuart Janney and Dinny Phipps.’
                              This Is Horse Racing - a preDerby interview by HRRN with Stuart Janney III (the whole article is worth a peek)

                              HRRN: How exciting has the ride been with Orb?

                              SJ: It’s actually been a fairly quick ride. Maybe there are other times when you have other horses that are very precocious and you start to think what races they could be in. Sometime in their 2-year-old year. I don’t think that was true with Orb. We thought he was athletic, a nice horse, but that he would probably take some time into his 3-year-old year to get anywhere near his potential.

                              Our plan was when we went to Florida, we’d give him a couple races down there on what we tend to think is a speed favoring track and it probably wouldn’t be his best opportunity but would give him some experience. Then we’d be in good position for the summer that could compete at some good level, whatever that might be. If you talk to Shug, and what I saw with less of a trained eye than his, it was pretty extraordinary how quickly he came around and grew up physically and to some extent mentally. It was a very pleasant surprise when we ended up in Fountain of Youth, which wasn’t really the plan. Then he won the Fountain of Youth and wasn’t necessarily the plan and he confirmed what a good horse he’d become in the Florida Derby.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Angelico View Post
                                Shortening the cheek pieces? I always thought a bridle was either properly adjusted or it wasn't... I always *try to* have my bridles properly adjusted.... I doubt that alone will keep one from displacing. Now consider that I'm working with cheap horses that need every edge they can get, not Orb.

                                Agree, cheers.
                                Properly adjusted can mean many things. Some horses prefer the bit higher, like two or three wrinkles, or so loose it hangs in their mouth. When the bit is loose (lower) the horse has the opportunity to actually hold it. Different strokes for different folks.

                                I don't even want to start dreaming of a triple crown winner yet!
                                I'll wait until after the Preakness.

                                Comment


                                • What Gestalt said. If he wins the Preakness, we'll talk. Though if it's going to happen, would be nice if it were for Shug...
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                                  • Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
                                    Does anyone know if Orb has the pedigree/talent to go all the way?? It's been 40 years since Secretariat. The last TC winner was 10 years before I was born. I'd LOVE to see some one win it and Shug/The Phipps seem so deserving.
                                    As trainers like to say, the horse makes the pedigree. Given how he ran the KD and on a sloppy track in a time to match past winners who ran it on a fast track, I'd say he's a favorite for the Belmont, no matter what he does in the Preakness.

                                    But to answer your question, his sire Malibu Moon throws some good stayers - Malibu Moonshine would have been a graded-stakes winner if he ran in Europe.

                                    Then there's grandsire A. P. Indy and great-grandsire Seattle Slew. Need I say more?

                                    On the distaff side there's his damsire Unbridled, who won the 1990 KD (but was 2nd in the Preakness).
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                                    • Original Poster

                                      With the mention of Malibu Moon its worth suggesting to anyone who hasn't picked up a copy but a good read is Josh Pons books on their Country Life/Merryland Farm.

                                      From Ed Fountaine/NYPost May 6, 2013: Orb's Kentucky Derby win is one for the good guys - classy

                                      Here’s something else about McGaughey: He wants the rest of his crew to get the credit. When he was being miked yesterday morning at Churchill Downs for an appearance on the Today Show, he called aside Eric Wing, a publicist for the NTRA who will soon take over as communications director for NYRA.

                                      “I have one request,” he said. “When I came here, I wanted it to be all about Jenn (Paterson, Orb’s exercise rider). I want to see her get her due.”

                                      Later, Shug told The Post, “I wouldn’t be standing here today if it wasn’t for her. Not only her skill as a rider, but as a horsewoman. She’s a wonderful young girl, and a huge part of our outfit, along with the others.

                                      “But she’s the one that gets on him every day, that makes the trips to breeze him. You just don’t see too many people in any walk of life make those type of sacrifices. As I told her last night, ‘you’ll never know how much I appreciate what you’ve done.’ ”
                                      Image (last week by Reed Palmer): Orb ridden by Paterson; Rosario rode Overwhelming

                                      2nd Image (last week by Reed Palmer): Orb ridden by Paterson; Rosario rode Overwhelming

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                                      • Glimmerglass, great pictures! Thanks so much for that link.
                                        Mystic Owl Sporthorses
                                        www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          Chad Brown originally nixed Normandy Invasion for the Preakness but it appears he may be willing to reverse that. As suggested by CVPeg I would look into changing the jockey myself - they don't seem like a productive combination. The horse has plenty of talent but the mojo doesn't seem to be there IMHO.

                                          DRF 5/6/13 - "Orb might face seven Kentucky Derby rivals"

                                          You have to appreciate (if there were not already enough reasons) Shug with his attitude with this next leg. Most trainers with any TC buzz chaff with the fear of what is up next - but not Shug

                                          Orb immediately created Triple Crown buzz because of the convincing manner in which he won the Derby, his fifth straight victory. No horse has won the Triple Crown since Affirmed 35 years ago, and Orb still has to get through the Preakness before taking aim at the Belmont Stakes in New York on June 8. But his trainer, Shug McGaughey, on Sunday said he welcomed the challenge.

                                          “I hope the target’s really big,” he said at Barn 43 at Churchill Downs. “I want it to be on me. I can take it. I enjoyed this experience, and I’m gonna enjoy the next experience just as much. And if we’re able to pull it off the next time, the target’s gonna get really big, and I want it that way.”

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