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selling TB's without papers to prevent racing again

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  • #21
    Originally posted by judybigredpony View Post
    .

    Customers have turned down a perfectly suitable horse because they want the JC Papers...Why?? they mean zip zero nadda as proof of what, he is a registered TB...he has a tattoo for crying out loud. The papers don't gain you entry into any special club, they are not required to show, his DNA is on file if he ever needs a FEI Passport.
    Your name will not be emblazed on those papers and a bill of sale and possesion of the horse is a more valid form of ownership proof than those D*m papers...

    ..
    You do need Jc papers or a tat to compete in USHJA/USEF TB divisions, TB Celebration classes or JC T.I.P sections. Many horses that were on the track do not have a tat because they failed racing 101 before they started a race. And purpose bred TB sport horses do not have tats.

    DNA is not required to obtain an FEI passport through the USEF.

    Performance Horse papers for TB's who have been DNA typed are usually accepted as proof of age.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by judybigredpony View Post
      I am so sick of this...why would I want to share JC papers for a tried and unsuccessful 3yr TB G, just so some yabbo gets a wild hair thinks they are Graham Motion and tries to put horse back into training. Alot of owners are willing to sell a horse on and take a huge financial loose because it wasn't cutting it as a race horse. No One wants to see Suzie Q return the horse to the track and get lucky and win a few. Or worse he breaks down and hurts someone.
      Makes the previous connections look like stink and owners less than happy to cut slow Moe loose for a riding horse just in case he has one more for the gipper..

      Burn the darn things...
      True, I guess it would make the previous connections "look like stink" when the horse goes on to make tons of money for the new connections. I doubt that Suzie or Sammy Q would have to be Graham Motion to know that the horse could win at $40,000 claim level instead of beating his head against the wall at allowance level. Of course the previous owners would have to be willing to put up money to claim the horse back if it were to be claimed away from them.

      Comment


      • #23
        The Jockey Club (JC) doesn't "run" racing but it does "run" registration. Why not a recognized status of "retired" forever part of his record. If he falls into the hands of someone who wants to race him as soon as the racing office puts his name into the system, he bounces out. Done.

        I know that some will argue that you cannot restrict future use of the horse but there is precedent with real property. Ever tried to renovate a house on a local historic register? Do you own land that is designated as "forever wild" or has a past owner of your property ever granted some access to the land to a club or organization (a birding group or a foxhunt, maybe?) When you geld a horse you restrict what future owners may do with it, they can't breed it. Just as the deed to your property shows and encumberances or rights of way, so your deed (papers) to your TB would show him to be retired. If someone sold a horse for racing, representing him as a race prospect and you took him to a track only to find that he was "legally" retired, then it's time to file a suit. If a "retired" status existed, people would more surely inquire before buying, and include it in the sales contract.

        Having proof of who your horse "is" is important to alot of people in the information age. Maybe it's because of the ride of WB's (many who come with papers and fancy brands) in hunter/jumpers that has made folks more aware. Being certain mean that when you write "By X o/o Y" on show papers your horse's sire and dam will get credit.

        I know several people who have done well selling horses off the track because there were verifiably closely related to famous performance/sport horses. If they were resale projects it was nice for the resleer to have proof that the horse is XYZ.

        Stallions like Lido Palace and Alphabet Soup have sired several very nice riding horses and have a few more in retraining. I wish there was a way to let race trainers who have offspring of such stallions (and there are several others) know how popular they are. I know only from reading this bb and sometimes EventingNation. By making riders and resellers aware who the leading sport sires are (via papers) word will make it's way back to the tracks.
        F O.B
        Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
        Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

        Comment


        • #24
          I will have to do some digging over here today but I'm pretty sure the TB registry has a way over here to keep horses from racing with papers/passport. The passport must accompany the horse, there are no options, but I'm sure the governing sport bodies work with Weatherby's on this project. I seem to remember a case in which a horse was raced in which he wasn't supposed to be and so the rules tightened.

          I believe the racing association's of the individual States could and should help the JC in this endeavour. There are many arguments for not being able to tell people what they can do with their private property, but if you knowingly buy a horse that is not for racing it should would it not be considered fraud?

          It wouldn't hurt for the governing bodies at home to look at what other countries are doing in which papers/passport going with horse are not an option. Darley has a pretty good in house reschooling and adoption program in England and I'm sure those horses are protected in some way.

          As I said, I obviously have some phone calls to make today. It's really a shame that a few bad apples have to ruin things for the majority of people who don't have any intention of running horses ever again. Again the people within the industry could make sure this doesn't happen either. It's well within everyone's right to refuse to train horses marked for non racing.

          Terri
          COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

          "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
            I will have to do some digging over here today but I'm pretty sure the TB registry has a way over here to keep horses from racing with papers/passport. The passport must accompany the horse, there are no options, but I'm sure the governing sport bodies work with Weatherby's on this project. I seem to remember a case in which a horse was raced in which he wasn't supposed to be and so the rules tightened.

            I believe the racing association's of the individual States could and should help the JC in this endeavour. There are many arguments for not being able to tell people what they can do with their private property, but if you knowingly buy a horse that is not for racing it should would it not be considered fraud?

            It wouldn't hurt for the governing bodies at home to look at what other countries are doing in which papers/passport going with horse are not an option. Darley has a pretty good in house reschooling and adoption program in England and I'm sure those horses are protected in some way.

            As I said, I obviously have some phone calls to make today. It's really a shame that a few bad apples have to ruin things for the majority of people who don't have any intention of running horses ever again. Again the people within the industry could make sure this doesn't happen either. It's well within everyone's right to refuse to train horses marked for non racing.

            Terri
            I hope there is a viable way to do this and precedent has already been set elsewhere. It would be easier to urge the JC for a solution if proof of a successful method is available.

            I would have an easier time convincing some non-race owners to try this game if they knew they could resell with some sort of breed papers. I know a few who will run only in allowance company and sell if non-competitive at that level. They do not sell with papers and that limits their options.


            With the push for after care programs and training,showing incentives, perhaps now is the time to convince the JC of this need.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
              I will have to do some digging over here today but I'm pretty sure the TB registry has a way over here to keep horses from racing with papers/passport. The passport must accompany the horse, there are no options, but I'm sure the governing sport bodies work with Weatherby's on this project. I seem to remember a case in which a horse was raced in which he wasn't supposed to be and so the rules tightened.
              Yes, the BHA has a "Non-Racing Agreement" that you can send with the horse that supposedly stops the horse from ever being raced again.

              But people need to keep in mind, this is the British Horseracing Authority, which GOVERNS racing in GB (i.e the equivelant of a state racing commission, well kinda, they also promote racing and administer prizemoney), and not Weatherbys (the British/Irish equivalent of the JC, i.e the guys who keep the stud book).
              And as Terri mentions, this is not 100% fool proof as horses have ended up back on the racecourse after being sold with one of these NRAs.

              What's interesting about that form is that it gives two options...
              1. The horse shall not participate in any race including Point-to-Points
              2. The horse shall not participate in any race with the exception of a Point-to-Point

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Linny View Post
                The Jockey Club (JC) doesn't "run" racing but it does "run" registration. Why not a recognized status of "retired" forever part of his record. If he falls into the hands of someone who wants to race him as soon as the racing office puts his name into the system, he bounces out. Done.

                I know that some will argue that you cannot restrict future use of the horse but there is precedent with real property. Ever tried to renovate a house on a local historic register? Do you own land that is designated as "forever wild" or has a past owner of your property ever granted some access to the land to a club or organization (a birding group or a foxhunt, maybe?) When you geld a horse you restrict what future owners may do with it, they can't breed it. Just as the deed to your property shows and encumberances or rights of way, so your deed (papers) to your TB would show him to be retired. If someone sold a horse for racing, representing him as a race prospect and you took him to a track only to find that he was "legally" retired, then it's time to file a suit. If a "retired" status existed, people would more surely inquire before buying, and include it in the sales contract.
                Comparing to a house with a deed restriction is not a good analogy.
                A horse's JC papers are not an deed of ownership. They are registration papers. The JC has no legal authority to decide what a horse can and cannot do. What they can decide is who goes into the American Studbook, because they own that book, ergo if you return the papers as "sold without pedigree", they will strike the horse from the stud book. That they can do.

                I think people need to stop beating up on the JC over this.

                There are options
                * send papers back and have horse sold without pedigree
                * draw up a legally binding contract that buyer signs that prohibits horse from ever being raced (good luck with that one when the horse changes hands)
                * someone set up a service that will verify parentage for TBs that have been sold without pedigree, using DNA on file. If it really is as important as someone of you guys make out, then there could be good money to be made here... charge people $500 or $1000 a pop. Personally, I don't think anyone will pay it, but hey.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Well just got off the phone with Weatherby's Ireland and Horse Racing Ireland. The news is as DRV says, for England. They will honor said system. However, the same studbook yet the Irish version, and Horse Racing Ireland do not agree such paperwork. Although Weatherby's Ireland did tell me, before I called HRI, that it would be honoured. So basically it's a bit of a disaster isn't it? I asked HRI why the couldn't agree the same policy and they don't have an answer. Although I can guarantee you that if one of the Darley rehome projects made it's way to Ireland chances are they would honor said agreement!

                  But England does seem to want to help the owners of these horses find the right homes with papers so it's a start.

                  Terri
                  COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                  "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I would think that a copy of papers would be helpful and at least a better option. You shouldn't be able to get a new set of papers without talking to original owner with some sort of checks, maybe a bit naive. I know if you're breeding for warmblood babies this will suffice.

                    Then again if there were microchips in place from foal age you could know for definite who your horse was and maybe the JC could send out something different than actual papers but still a pedigree and maybe a race record. Something people could never ever fight. Such as in signing agreement knowing that by receiving this information you and any subsequent owners have no legal rights to racing.

                    Spitballing here!

                    Terri
                    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Drvmb1ggl3 View Post
                      That is a legal minefield, and one that I doubt the JC wants to venture into. Horses are after all property, and dictating what a person can or can't do with property that is rightfully their's is a large can of worms and lawsuit waiting to happen. The JC also has no jurisdiction over racing. What they can do, as mentioned above, is cancel the horses's registration papers, in essence remove it from the American Studbook. As keepers of the SB that is within their remit.
                      Actually I don't think it's a can of worms. This is done by the AKC as the majority of puppies of non-show quality were being sold without papers by the breeders, so the AKC was losing out on the money stream. So now they have Limited registration. Not a can of worms at all. They have even implemented a way to get full registration later with the breeders agreement. The dogs are eligible for all AKC competition except the breed ring, so can still do agility, obedience, tracking etc. It would be pretty simple for them to do actually, and is a source of revenue so if they figured out there was a market for it, they would probably do it.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        The JC doesn't run racing but before a horse may start in any race the papers must be on file and the racing office is sync'ed with the JC so that the past performances are updated for publication. When entries are taken papers are pulled and data is input into the JC database, this is how all the records are kept that show up on an Equibase search of a horse.

                        If the JC regognized "retired" as a status, that record would follow the horse forever and to sell such a horse to a racing home would be fraud and punishable under state fraud laws. If the status of "retired" was published on the JC site and readily available in a search, anyone looking to purchase a TB cold look it up and prevent themselves from buying a non racing horse.
                        F O.B
                        Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                        Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by NMK View Post

                          That said, the folks that want to play outside the rules probably would not want to sign a restrictive bill of sale. Those that understand why its important have no problem with it.

                          I wouldn't sign/buy on principle. Unless I were acquiring a specific horse from a nonprofit like CANTER, I don't do stipulations about property transactions-wouldn't let the sellers close on the house I bought without vacating first (they wanted extra time after closing to pack then, I said no.) If you don't trust me, don't sell me the horse. If you want control of something, never sell it. If you sell it, accept it's not yours and you have no rights to it.

                          As far as AKC puppies go, would I pay anywhere close to a fully papered dog's price for one not fully registered? As long as people realize why someone might pay half or a third what a papered, registered animal would bring, I suppose you can do a sale however you want. Just remember the less documentation and available usage there is, the less value an animal has, the less options there are unless you're always willing to do a refund and take it back.

                          Maybe it's working in a sector where dealing with 'dead-hand' gifts is a nightmare now thought best avoided no matter how valuable they are, but I don't like restrictions on property transactions. And it's important that sales remain just that-unrestricted property transactions. Muddling it creates the danger of animals being viewed as something other than property items.
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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                            As far as AKC puppies go, would I pay anywhere close to a fully papered dog's price for one not fully registered? As long as people realize why someone might pay half or a third what a papered, registered animal would bring, I suppose you can do a sale however you want. Just remember the less documentation and available usage there is, the less value an animal has, the less options there are unless you're always willing to do a refund and take it back.
                            I purchased a pet quality puppy with limited registration from a leading breeder of Rhodesian Ridgebacks several years ago. She was half the cost of the show quality puppies in the litter. The way she was priced was not unusual. Pet quality puppies are usually sold at a significant discount from the show quality puppy price.

                            Another angle that might be useful with regard to limited, non-racing registration: are people who stand race stallions reluctant to breed for foals that are not aimed for the track? I see stats around number of foals/number of starters/number of winners. I would understand how a race breeder would not want to breed to a sport horse mare, as that foal will influence the % of starters negatively. If there was some sort of limited registration, those foals could be left out of the calculations and would not impact the % to start number.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Here's a good comparision

                              $500,000. TB G sale price as 2yr old.
                              Raced 5 years earned his keep and then some.
                              Owners "Sold" him for $5,500. as good re-started H/J prospect. They ARE very concerned he never show up running at a low level track where he could keep making a check. Oh yes very sound passed full PPe w/ x-rays. They just wanted him to enjoy the rest of his life.
                              VERY good reason to keep those papers safe. He can use his Tattoo for T.I.P. purposes...

                              I am now seeing papers coming thru w/ permant affixed stickers saying if horse is ever in jeopardy or found in an auction/slaughter situtation to please contact them. Horse has a shipper and home to go to. They also keep JC informed if horse found on a slaughter bound situation and identified via a Rescue they will buy back no questions asked.

                              I still feel that if the last owner of said racing horse wanted to stop it from forever racing JC could very easly mark it Non-racing and issue that owner a set of Non racing papers just like AKC for a Fee...not for Free...its a key stroke entry and paper n printers ink...once done forever non reversable...

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Judy you've just stated a reason in which it IS important to keep papers with horses. If a horse ends up in the slaughter pipeline or less than ideal circumstances but has papers marked with who will take them back, at least it's a hopeful start. A horse who's had his papers stripped from him or never had a tattoo probably has very little chance of finding his/her way home easily. Quite often tattoos become hard to read as the years go by. Identification makes it quicker and easier to get horse to safety.

                                I agree it's so very hard to protect horses when selling with papers but the majority are not being thrown back into racing. Yes the small few that do make it much harder for any owner to trust someone.

                                Terri
                                COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                                "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I have been to New Holland countless times. The horses who are bought by the kill buyer have their papers and their halters thrown in the trash as soon as the hammer falls.
                                  McDowell Racing Stables

                                  Home Away From Home

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                                  • #37
                                    This subject is a dog that has been beaten to death countless times on here...

                                    If you don't want to see the horse return to the track, keep the papers. PERIOD.
                                    The only difference between a runaway and a fast gallop is nothing but a SMILE
                                    Most horses cross the Rainbow Bridge, but TEDDY JUMPED IT!!!
                                    Member of the COTH Enabler Clique

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                                      I have been to New Holland countless times. The horses who are bought by the kill buyer have their papers and their halters thrown in the trash as soon as the hammer falls.
                                      Thank You Laurie....there is in place a deal with the JC where you CAN call in leave a notation attached to a horses name giving instructions to call if a horse is identified by its Tattoo in a slaughter or abandoned state. You can then pay whom ever to get horse out of the situation.'

                                      But if you don't want to see your horse racing down the tubes your only recourse is withhold the papers.....Get a good bill of sale w/ horses registered name and a clear line of ownership and horse ID if you want to participate in T.I.P type shows/programs.
                                      For those Sport purpose breed untattooed TB's most likely they were never fashionably bred to race and have a far less chance of ending up on any backside by they time they get broke discipline trained and sold into a career....

                                      If your concern is identifing and pulling/rescuing every TB horse slaughter every tattooed racing AQHA or Standardbreds are they elites to be pulled and the rest sent on is ...for another day

                                      You do need Jc papers or a tat to compete in USHJA/USEF TB divisions, TB Celebration classes or JC T.I.P sections. Many horses that were on the track do not have a tat (Uh yeah they do, if its a accredited Paramutual track they get Tattooed upon arrival, tracks no longer like unidentifird babies hanging around) because they failed racing 101 before they started a race. And purpose bred TB sport horses do not have tats.(Yes but they DNA and JC papers w/ identifing description and the owner can keep a copy of/ or print one out of JC application)

                                      DNA is not required to obtain an FEI passport through the USEF.

                                      Performance Horse papers for TB's who have been DNA typed are usually accepted as proof of age.
                                      Exactly....So JC papers are not needed if you do know the horses correct name and he matches the identification..So no JC papers required....
                                      IF however you buy a horse with unreadable tattoo and no verifiable JC name and zip papers thats a much harder nut to crack.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Not every track tattoos on arrival and many horses training at training centers and farms go "unmarked" for months. I was with a tatoo'er once doing a bunch of horses on the Godolphin property at Saratoga. Most of the horses were babies but some were 3 and one was 4. All had been on racetrack property at some point.

                                        I can assure you that many young horses train on tracks for months, ship out to a farm, return and train then get hurt and retire without ever having a tatoo.

                                        Stickers on papers are great, IF someone reads them. In the last few years horses have shown up in killpens and auctions whose papers are still sitting on file at the track where they race only a few days prior, complete with a sticker. Trainers who claim a horse don't look at the papers and wouldn't know if they have a "soft landing palce" as a result.

                                        Since I work in racing and ride in the H/J world, I see how "papers" have become important to riders/owners. It is a tangible connection to who he is and where he came from. It means you can write his pedigree on an entry sheet with confidence or look for his siblings if they become available.

                                        I do think that most people who want a horse sold off the track forever would be willing to pay a small fee for a permanent status change to "retired."
                                        F O.B
                                        Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                                        Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by Linny View Post

                                          I do think that most people who want a horse sold off the track forever would be willing to pay a small fee for a permanent status change to "retired."
                                          I know I, and most everyone I have dealt with in racing,would be willing to pay a fee for this. If the non-race papers/data stamp were available, I think it would be popular and a useful "tool" to bring in more owners. Not all who love racing are cut out for the claiming game.

                                          It is difficult to find a good home for them sometimes and every bit of incentive helps. Even if that enticement is that he is great great grandson of (insert well known horse)

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