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Nicanor running now

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  • Nicanor running now

    Island Sun Stakes at Belmont
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm
  • Original Poster

    #2
    steady fourth
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm

    Comment


    • #3
      Just curious, and this will never happen (and this is NOTHING against Matz at all), but might a different trainer make any difference?

      Comment


      • #4
        Difference with what? He's just nothing super. All another trainer might have done would have been rushed him young.

        A different stallion might make more of a difference...is Dynaformer pensioned yet?
        Author Page
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        • #5
          Originally posted by betonbill View Post
          Just curious, and this will never happen (and this is NOTHING against Matz at all), but might a different trainer make any difference?
          I doubt it. Nicanor is still a top echelon horse when you consider most horses are claimers and more than likely running to his full ability.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by betonbill View Post
            Just curious, and this will never happen (and this is NOTHING against Matz at all), but might a different trainer make any difference?
            You hit the nail right on the head. Yes, trust me when I say, a different trainer would make a HUGE difference. I call Matz the "race filler" for stakes races. He sure does know how to win those maiden claimers though.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by danceronice
              A different stallion might make more of a difference...is Dynaformer pensioned yet?
              No need to be yet. Getting $150,000 this year again.
              Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

              Comment


              • #8
                Ok I may sound "outrageous" here but allow me this for a moment.

                Michael is a good and solid trainer. His staff is exemplary. And he does more to listen to what his horses want than many many other trainers.

                Nicanor is a son of Dynaformer....who prior to "He who shall not be named" was notorious for producing late bloomers.

                It's only May. Turf season is still just getting going up here in the northeast. Nic has run 3 times recently at consistent intervals with inconsistent results.

                He has been a better runner than his recent results show. However he's been running in stakes. Once Delaware's turf opens, I would imagine you'd see him hit a AOC or a straight allowance to try to get his confidence back.

                I am much happier seeing Michael manage this horse than Asmussen, Dutrow or Lake.

                And lets also face the possibility that Nic's soundness (mentally or physically) has taken some management, hence the lighter schedule, and he could well not be wanting to run. And as a full brother black type stakes winner to you know who, he won't be doing anything down the ranks..He'll just stop.


                Michael has the job, so let him do it.

                ~Emily
                "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
                  Ok I may sound "outrageous" here but allow me this for a moment.

                  Michael is a good and solid trainer. His staff is exemplary. And he does more to listen to what his horses want than many many other trainers.

                  Nicanor is a son of Dynaformer....who prior to "He who shall not be named" was notorious for producing late bloomers.

                  It's only May. Turf season is still just getting going up here in the northeast. Nic has run 3 times recently at consistent intervals with inconsistent results.

                  He has been a better runner than his recent results show. However he's been running in stakes. Once Delaware's turf opens, I would imagine you'd see him hit a AOC or a straight allowance to try to get his confidence back.

                  I am much happier seeing Michael manage this horse than Asmussen, Dutrow or Lake.

                  And lets also face the possibility that Nic's soundness (mentally or physically) has taken some management, hence the lighter schedule, and he could well not be wanting to run. And as a full brother black type stakes winner to you know who, he won't be doing anything down the ranks..He'll just stop.


                  Michael has the job, so let him do it.

                  ~Emily
                  And just perhaps he is a not much of an anything thing horse and the careful management of a less than stakes quality horse would blow in a less carefully managed environment. After all, the last "great" Dynaformer shattered to pieces in front of all and the world to see. Yeah, that's what we want in the breeding shed. Poor Barbaro and his five, or is it six, exactly bred siblings.
                  "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Calamber...

                    Hang on a sec and lets try this again.

                    1.) Not ALL Dynaformers break down. Not even all the ones out of a Carson City mare break down.

                    2.) "You know who" Only has 3 full siblings on the ground:

                    1.) Nicanor '06
                    2.) Lentenor '07
                    3.) Margano '09

                    She aborted in January of 2010 and did not have a foal in 2008. She has not yet delivered the 4th full sibling which should be due shortly.

                    And just as an FYI, even though they're not full siblings.

                    Holy Ground is standing in South America

                    And Man in Havana is gelded and competing in jumpers.

                    So it's not like the breeding world is overun with HIS family.


                    Additionally... you'd be wise to know that many of Dynaformers get are notoriously sound. Lots of longevity.. just look at McDynamo.


                    ~Emily
                    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Calamber View Post
                      And just perhaps he is a not much of an anything thing horse and the careful management of a less than stakes quality horse would blow in a less carefully managed environment. After all, the last "great" Dynaformer shattered to pieces in front of all and the world to see. Yeah, that's what we want in the breeding shed. Poor Barbaro and his five, or is it six, exactly bred siblings.


                      http://www.st-publishing.com/cms2/in...er-6-dynaskill

                      http://www.st-publishing.com/cms2/in...r-5-tax-ruling

                      http://www.st-publishing.com/cms2/in...mber-3-dynaski

                      etc..... there are plenty more
                      And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
                        Calamber...

                        Hang on a sec and lets try this again.

                        1.) Not ALL Dynaformers break down. Not even all the ones out of a Carson City mare break down.

                        2.) "You know who" Only has 3 full siblings on the ground:

                        1.) Nicanor '06
                        2.) Lentenor '07
                        3.) Margano '09

                        She aborted in January of 2010 and did not have a foal in 2008. She has not yet delivered the 4th full sibling which should be due shortly.

                        And just as an FYI, even though they're not full siblings.

                        Holy Ground is standing in South America

                        And Man in Havana is gelded and competing in jumpers.

                        So it's not like the breeding world is overun with HIS family.


                        Additionally... you'd be wise to know that many of Dynaformers get are notoriously sound. Lots of longevity.. just look at McDynamo.


                        ~Emily
                        Agree - those Dynaformer/Roberto-bred horses are both late and sound. Are Nicanor & Lentenor potential sire material? Right now the answer is probably "no", but their retirement future is in no danger. They'll be well-looked after once their racing careers are over.

                        Matz won't run his horses into the ground, I'm sure. Nor will the Jacksons take the risk of running the family of You-Know-Who if they are anything less than 100% sound.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks Rio!! You should see Dynaskill in person....wow.

                          Also I want to make a note..

                          Man in Havana was gelded on the Jacksons say so. They had smaller farms calling wanting him but for the good of the TB breed they cut him.


                          ~Emily
                          "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have seen her in person - I think at Iriquois 2 years ago. wanted to take her home!!
                            More unsound, breaking down, "why breed to him" Dynaformers include:
                            http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/sta...ion_no=6537847

                            http://www.horseracingnation.com/horse/Dynaslew

                            http://www.pedigreequery.com/dynever

                            http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/rac...ter-field.aspx

                            http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...rdino-handicap


                            Oh heck - just go look at his stats on his stallion page.
                            And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Good grief.
                              Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Dynaformer doesn't produce soundness issue (Barbaro had a freak accident. Now, whether he was really Triple Crown material, who knows. I doubt it, but then I wasn't overly enamored of him.) But none of that particular cross, Barbaro aside, have been anything spectacular. Plus they've all been late bloomers--better Matz takes them along slow and doesn't try to push them than some trainer who fixates on the three-year-old stakes tries to rush them and they DO fall apart, mentally or physically.
                                Author Page
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                                Steampunk Sweethearts

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by rio2 View Post
                                  I have seen her in person - I think at Iriquois 2 years ago.
                                  Not to hijack, but hey Rio, are you middle TN too?

                                  Oh, and to throw in my 2 cents: so he's not as fast as his brother. Why is this a big deal or a surprise to anyone?

                                  He's a faster than average racehorse who's not having to pay his own feed bill and is in no danger of ever being without a home. All's well that ends well.

                                  Also, I've seen Calamber's comments nearly a half dozen times in the past week about Dynaformer's being unsound. I'm sorry, I just don't agree.
                                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Where is the perception coming from that Dynaformer produces unsoundness?

                                    The pedigree articles on the racing sites such as Bloodhorse all mention Dynaformer as being one of the best sources for soundness.

                                    "Although some care in matching conformation types is likely to be needed with his daughters, as a group they offer the opportunity to tap into Dynaformer’s stamina and soundness, both attractive commodities in a gene pool often lacking in one or both."
                                    "With the pensioning of A.P. Indy, the most reliable source of stamina by far among the top Kentucky-based sires is Dynaformer, now 26 years old. Other stallions are capable of getting horses that can stay 10 furlongs or more, but none are as consistent in transmitting stamina as Dynaformer, and very few approach him as sources of soundness, scope, and bone. Dynaformer is also one of the few Kentucky-based sires with significant appeal in the European market, which, like it or not, is where much of the big money is."
                                    As for Nicanor, he's not doing too shabby. How many horses out of the 35,000+ born each year even make it to a stakes level race, much less hit the board? I'd gladly take a horse who's earned $147K. Even if he's not winning at that level, he's certainly earning his keep.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Dynaformer has 1217 foals of racing age. Of that number, 994 have made it to the track and raced. That is a percentage of 81.68%, which is way above average for most top stallions, indeed stallions in general.
                                      For comparison...

                                      Dynaformer 81.68%
                                      Unbridled Song 69.77%
                                      AP Indy 72.06%
                                      Street Cry 59.91%
                                      Smart Strike 71.60%
                                      Giants Causeway 68.82%
                                      Distorted Humour 73.79%
                                      Elisive Quality 65.53%
                                      Tiznow 59.22%


                                      Of those 994 that raced, they have made 17,908 starts all told. That is a average of 18.02 starts per starter, again a stat that is waaaaaaaay above average compared to other top stallions.

                                      For comparsion...

                                      Dynaformer 18.02
                                      Unbridled Song 12.54
                                      AP Indy 13.34
                                      Street Cry 11.29
                                      Smart Strike 14.70
                                      Giants Causeway 12.42
                                      Distorted Humour 16.06
                                      Elisive Quality 12.04
                                      Tiznow 10.64

                                      While not definitive, and there are undoubtedly other variables involved, both those numbers (that he gets more foals to the track and once there they make more starts), would seem to suggest that Dynaformer's offspring are sounder than average.
                                      Maybe Calamber has stats that suggest otherwise.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                                        Plus they've all been late bloomers--better Matz takes them along slow and doesn't try to push them than some trainer who fixates on the three-year-old stakes tries to rush them and they DO fall apart, mentally or physically.
                                        Like Lentenor?

                                        "To get him into the Derby he's got to run first or second in his next start or it's a moot point," said Matz.

                                        http://www.drf.com/news/lentenor-unc...-florida-derby

                                        He hasn't been heard from since.

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