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Disgusted!!!

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  • Disgusted!!!

    Just heard bad news that the 2007 full sibling to one of my fillies, broke down in her last race and was euthanized. Magic Toes was orignally trained by Brown and then was sold to Kuhns. She broke down under the latter trainer. But here is what disgusts me: A woman contacted me on facebook to see if I could help her buy this filly thinking I knew the owner as I now owned the filly's dam and her full sister. After lots of phone calls it turns out Magic Toes was given to Brown. The lady wanted to buy the filly and was told the filly was for sale by one of Browns people. She offered money and Brown told her he wanted to run her one more time and then he would contact her to sell her. He entered her repeatedly and she never got in or the race didn't go. I message the lady a month or so later to see if she ever got Magic Toes, she said she was told the filly shipped to FL to run. I looked her up on Equibase and she was now running under David Kuhns as owner/trainer. WTH!! Why did Brown not call the lady back to say he was willing to sell her the filly to be a show horse? Now she is dead and it is all because of the sad and pathetic, I don't give a damn about a horse trainers at Charles Town. It makes me sick. Sorry to vent and I don't post on here much any more because of all the behind the computer screen know it alls, but I wanted to get this out. Her full sister is not going to race nor be sold as race horseany more, I don't want to subject her to the butchery of the racing industry. And I am a licensed trainer btw.
    www.hilltopfarmva.com

    Facebook: Hilltop Farm VA

  • #2
    "Her full sister is not going to race nor be sold as race horseany more, I don't want to subject her to the butchery of the racing industry. And I am a licensed trainer btw."

    A licensed trainer that doesn't see the business side of things, perhaps.

    This guy didn't call about selling the horse for one reason- he didn't want to sell the horse.

    It's always a shame when a horse breaks down.

    That's about all there is to it, that I can see.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      He sold the horse. Just not to the woman who wanted her as a show horse. And I do see the business side of racing, just not the butchering end of it, because without horses, then you can't be a trainer now can you?
      www.hilltopfarmva.com

      Facebook: Hilltop Farm VA

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      • #4
        So he sold the horse to someone else. Unless she had it in writing he was going to sell it to her, they didn't have a contract. Maybe someone offered him (or the owner of record, which is a different person than the trainer in her last start with Brown, so she never ran under his name) better money (did the woman who wanted her offer at least $4500? That's the tag she was running for.) If he has a buyer there with cash in hand who'll take the horse, who's not very profitable, now, is the smart business decision to pass and hope they'll still be there if he calls someone who cold-called him weeks ago and they say sorry, changed my mind?

        It's just me, maybe, but I really wouldn't dream of calling total strangers and saying "Hey, can I buy your horse for a totally different purpose than it's serving now, even though you've never advertised it for sale?" If I did that to a race trainer, I'd certainly want to offer the stated 'price tag' if it's a claimer--the tag they're running for.
        Author Page
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        • #5
          hilltop... on this one I feel ya.

          There are some people I've met that I swear go out of their way to not do right by the horses.

          Whether the owner sold the horse, or whether it was just "good business..." I don't know.

          Will leave it there, I guess.
          Last edited by caffeinated; Apr. 11, 2011, 03:46 PM.
          "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

          My CANTER blog.

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          • #6
            I am with you too hilltop. So what if the buyer wanted the filly for something other than racing? Most racehorses are not going to make a million dollars so why not let her go where she ha a chance to be successful? Except for the greed and the "one more race" mentality she might not be dead. I thank God every day for the trainer at Evangeline who knew my horse was never going to make any money racing and who gave him to me rather than run him into the ground and break him down. It's a ruthless business sometimes.
            SPAY/NEUTER/RESCUE/ADOPT!
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            • #7
              Racing is a business. No one knows if a horse is gong to break down --- there just isnt any way, and certainly when it does happen, fingers cant be pointed saying..."you shouldnt have run the horse". It happens, no ones fault.

              I've posted this elsewhere trying to keep perspective... but in the last 10 years of eventing 38 people have DIED. People died, folks, and I dont see protesters standing at the start box saying..."dont do this, you'll die". There are hundreds paralyzed and maimed for life --- with just as many horses lost. It happens.

              Racing is its own business, just like eventing, show jumpers, h/j's --- foxhunters........its its own world. I would wonder if people are asking these other professionals to give them their horses when they are ready to retire....... or before something happens to them. I dont know but I doubt anyone is standing at an out-gate asking to be given a horse that doesnt ribbon.

              What I notice is folks wanting these tb's ...sometimes for their own horses, but mostly to train and flip. These racing horses have a life, and when they retire there are adoption agencies, CANTER, and other outlets to secure one.
              There isnt this butchering or need to call to arms a rally to save racehorses, many times its like a plane crash, the only time you hear about it, not the thousands of good races.

              I know of DK, he had a horse I would have liked to personally own, and did send him a message that if he retires the horse to contact me, I was willing to pay the claim -- he decided to continue to run the horse and he is still running only
              under a different trainer, it was claimed. As someone said, offer the tag; doesnt mean they'll sell you the horse either.
              Sometimes it has nothing to do with the trainer, but the owners.
              If you do have a trainers license, then this is redundant to you , but maybe it will help others understand.
              Its not in someone elses backyard anymore....... your Pres brought it home.
              Racing>Business As Usual @PN

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              • #8
                You also must consider that many times trainers are contacted by someone who says they want the horse but then when called back after the career is over they have changed their minds or gotten married or had kids or lost their job and can't take it on. Trainers that have been burned are less likely to bother. Remember, in racing claims are made almost sight unseen. Horses change hands alot more and alot faster than in the h/j world where you shop for a year and hem and haw. Race trainers haven't the time for that. (Yes, trainers also run horses into the gound thinking that they have a good home waiting, yet what the potential owner wanted was a riding/sport horse, not a pasture puff.)

                Also, the horse has an owner too. Maybe the owner made the sale without consulting the trainer?

                I do feel bad about what happened to the horse, I always do. Everytme a horse breaks down someone shouts about "greed" but if the horse was running well and in good condition why was it greedy to expect more races out of him? It's no more greedy that to expect one more run from your foxhunter or a few more trips from you show hunter.
                F O.B
                Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, it's one thing to call an owner or trainer and say "I would like to give this horse a home when they're done running" and rather another entirely to say "I would like to buy this horse of yours now, even though you are not listing her for sale and are not done racing her". Unless your friend was offering magnificent sum, that's sort of a pretentious move.

                  Who's to say the horse wouldn't have broken down racing "once more" for the old trainer, or that she would have had a pasture accident the first day home with your friend, etc?

                  Look at it this way: Say you see a horse in a pasture that you think is pretty. You go knock on the door and ask the complete strangers who answer to buy said horse. They tell you they are going to (event/hunt/barrel race/jump) Dobbin a little more but they'll give you a call. A couple of months later, you find out through the grapevine that Dobbin was sold to someone else and consequently had a life-ending injury in the new home.

                  Would you go posting a thread about what jerks all the parties involved are and proclaim the whole industry is disgusting based on their actions?

                  I'm not saying there isn't stuff in the racing industry that makes me sick, but the willingness and glee in "outing" every individual who won't sell a horse to an off the track home is also pretty disgusting.
                  bar.ka think u al.l. susp.ect
                  free bar.ka and tidy rabbit

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                  • #10
                    Well horses are not my business just my personal pleasure and I'll say it-there is a time to sell a race horse and it is not after they break down, I get it Hilltop, squeezing one more race out of this horse destroyed it. There was a perfectly honest buyer but it was important to race rather than retire sound.

                    I have a Canter horse and the previous owners did right by him, and for that I am gratefull. He has a family to love him for the rest of his life.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      SV> as horses arent your business, it might help to understand that no one knows if/when/how a horse breaks down......again, it happens.

                      Its really not a matter of *squeezing* another race as that horse might have raced for another year, maybe 2 or more
                      and done well. No one ever knows that either. Racing is what these horses love -- they are bred for it just as jumpers are bred (ask Denny how long his lineage is on his jumping stock).

                      Its always sad when a horse is injured; but theres no fault to be given here. Just because someone wanted a trainer to *give* them a horse (rather presumptious anyway IMO) doesnt mean since they didnt, they erred -- mentioned above were many reasons why such a request might have been denied.
                      Its not in someone elses backyard anymore....... your Pres brought it home.
                      Racing>Business As Usual @PN

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There's nothing in the mare's race record to indicate she was an accident waiting to happen, either. In fact the chart for her last race just says "bad step", which we all know can happen just walking out to the pasture. It boggles my mind when people assume because a horse breaks down that it was three-legged in the paddock and the trainer said "Aw, run it anyway." Not saying there aren't some bottom-feeders who would, but most trainers do not send horses out they think are likely to go down. For starters, they'd never get jockeys to work for them again (look at the strike staged against Gill horses at Penn--remember if the horse goes down, there's a rider up there who goes with him, who isn't suicidal. Not to mention all the other riders in the race who could get caught in the pileup.) Plus, they don't win any money if they DNF--even if someone's operating on a base profit motive, sending out a horse you know is unsound is bad business as they're not likely to win you any more money than they would standing in the barn.
                        Author Page
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                        Steampunk Sweethearts

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                        • #13
                          The assumption some have that nonracing homes are always better than racing homes is a little interesting coming from this website where there is often some thread about abuse someone witnessed at a show or in a back pasture or by the side of the road. I'm not speaking about the OPs acquaintance specifically but most TB trainers in this Internet day and age have stories about the public contacting them regarding individual horses that somehow come up on their radar. Sometimes its a nice gesture like "let me know if this horse ever needs a home" but often its not. There are people out there with super inflated notions of the value their ownership brings to the table and they want to pay pennies on the dollar for a viable racehorse just to "get him off the track". I dare them to go to Rolex and do the same thing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There is no way to prove or disprove something that didn't happen. There is no way to know if the horse in the OP would have been fine had she left the track.

                            The assumption that life away from the track is always more risky than at the track is a fallacy. Yes, racing is tough on horses but horses get hurt doing everything. I know of several old horses that have left the track and gotten fatally injured in their stall or turnout. How many event horses are hurt every season? Are there squads of people seeking to rescue horses from Denny and the O'Connors? Why the assumption that eventers are caring horsemen and race trainer are just greedy abusers?
                            F O.B
                            Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                            Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Any of you detractors watched the replay of the race???

                              Its on Calracing.com for a free registration.

                              That mare was very game in the short amount of the race that she contested. I half expected to see a horse lollygagging along behind spitting the bit. But not Magic Toes. She was in the one hole and though she broke slow, she dove into the bridle and moved up the rail willingly. And then her official chart had it right, she took one bad step.

                              One bad step is all it takes in this world and it'd be good if we all could come to acknowledge that fact. With that one bad step the time and energy of MT's exercise riders, groom's, farriers, vets, trainer and owners towards her quality of life was ended. And I am quite sure that we don't honestly believe that everyone of them colluded to push a horse towards an untimely demise.

                              Back in 2005 at Delaware Park's closing day I had two runners for two or my three bosses. (Was an assistant for 3 trainers simultaneously) Talk about a bad day, the ship in broke his knee at the 1/16th pole and the former stakes horse was eased at the head of the stretch. I didn't know the ship in at all, but I had to give the go ahead to put him down. The former stakes horse had been going badly for a while and a well placed piece of instructions to Ramon allowed him to walk off the track that day.

                              But in neither case did it seem like these were foretold events. And it sucked mightily.

                              Look here for a bit of perspective: http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com...-on.../page138

                              There are 138 pages of people asking about horses that broke down, were vanned off or pulled up. And the number of horses filling those pages in a weekly constant. Why? Because it's a risk inherent to the sport. And the world of horses as a whole. As has been stated there are deaths in eventing, steeplechasing, dressage, rodeo, and I am betting all other disciplines worldwide.

                              And life is a funny thing sometimes. You see people act like they are owed the life they desire. Not that they should work for it, God forbid. And then you see others that have an amazing grasp of how to work to achieve their dreams, even when Vegas isn't even taking bets the odds are so long.

                              I don't care if you're a backside worker, a bookie, a rider or just someone who once longed to pet a horse. We all have a life and we all will have a death, and that my friends is a fact. You just have to decide how you're gonna live it, and watch out, as best you can, for those one bad steps.

                              ~Emily
                              "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                It sounds like there are a whole lot of assumptions being made. Brown sold the horse (um, she did have an owner, right?), Brown wanted to squeeze one more race out of her (who says she wasn't running well, and wasn't fit to run more?). Did the woman offer to BUY the mare for what she was worth (claiming price?) Or just to take her? It was an accident, horses have them all the time, all over the place. And we've all seen the proof that non-racing homes are not always any better than the racing homes. It's sad, but with the info given in the OP, I can't see what more there is to be upset over.
                                Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
                                www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I was approached often at the track by people saying 'Oh I love your horse, I want to buy him, here's my number" Ok crazy person, thanks and I would trash the piece of paper. I'm sure there were various factors in play as to the why the sale was made. Do you really expect Ronnie to keep track of everybody who wants a horse? I'm pretty sure he has better things to do I think spouting off that this horse is dead because it wasn't sold to the lady who wanted him is slightly ridiculous. If you are so worried about the fate of every horse in the US why do you stand stallions? By offering lower end stallions you just add to the problem of cheaply bred horses in the US
                                  Originally posted by The Saddle
                                  Perhaps I need my flocking adjusted.

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                                  • #18
                                    SWTVixen, if "no one knows" when a horse is going to break down you better let the racetracks know because they have vets, stewards and others whose job it is to try and prevent that. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? I hope you are not actually a trainer and if you are, please tell me your name because if I ever own a racehorse again, I will avoid you like the plague. I used to work for Mr. Brown, everyone should look at the stats and read the story of Dorothy Dixer. This is just par for the course for him. Hundreds of horses and very high stats for breakdowns and cripples, maybe not under his name, but you get the picture I hope.

                                    XCountrygirl, it does take quite a bit of collusion to push them toward that "bad step", which is why I took myself out of the equation. It also takes quite a few delusional people to think that it is just "what happens", like the proverbial s#@t. Not at all true, many, probably most, of these deaths can be avoided. It would be a much better situation all around if more were on the page of those who do take responsibility for their actions and become a better horseman and woman for it. Of course there will be deaths, as sooner or later everyone walks that route. The existentialism and nonsense that says it will just happen anyway is pure fatalism and an excuse for watching all of this for so long that it inures you to the obvious. Just don't become jaded, for the sake of the horses at the very least.

                                    Being in busines does not mean you have to turn into Ivan the Terrible to get the bucks, or does it? Maybe that is why Dr. Byars has begun his organization and the discussion that is necessary to have regarding the industry. I am really sick to death of hearing this called a business. What kind of business carries with it this kind of attrition that is a humane kind of enterprise? It is called primitive accumulation in economic terms and then benign neglect. Both horrors and a type of British form of capitalism, a la Adam Smith. Not that of the American System, that of Henry Carey and Alexander Hamilton. You don't eat up your resources in this kind of manner, unless you are the Lord of the Manor and the hounds, horses and people are all your serfs and thus the body count matters not. This is sad and all too familiar.
                                    "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      [QUOTE=Calamber;5551902]
                                      XCountrygirl, it does take quite a bit of collusion to push them toward that "bad step", which is why I took myself out of the equation. It also takes quite a few delusional people to think that it is just "what happens", like the proverbial s#@t. Not at all true, many, probably most, of these deaths can be avoided. It would be a much better situation all around if more were on the page of those who do take responsibility for their actions and become a better horseman and woman for it. Of course there will be deaths, as sooner or later everyone walks that route. The existentialism and nonsense that says it will just happen anyway is pure fatalism and an excuse for watching all of this for so long that it inures you to the obvious. Just don't become jaded, for the sake of the horses at the very least.

                                      Being in busines does not mean you have to turn into Ivan the Terrible to get the bucks, or does it?QUOTE]

                                      I agree with you. I am sick of people saying that if it is a business, that money is the top priority. Horse welfare should be built into the business plan just like employee benefits are for humans. There are way to many people out there calling themselves horseman that would at the drop of the hat take a horse to an auction because "it's a business". To me, that means you are not a horseman.

                                      There are horses that break down because of the "bad step". A friend of mine just had her first breakdown and the horse was 100% sound and starting for the 2nd time. Made an early/rank move and must have tweaked something. She was a mess. However, there are many that are preventable. There were two horses in the last week or two that were claimed at Philly Park that broke down. Chances are they were dropped because something was wrong.....

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by sjdressage View Post

                                        There are horses that break down because of the "bad step". A friend of mine just had her first breakdown and the horse was 100% sound and starting for the 2nd time. Made an early/rank move and must have tweaked something. She was a mess. However, there are many that are preventable. There were two horses in the last week or two that were claimed at Philly Park that broke down. Chances are they were dropped because something was wrong.....
                                        Horses sometimes drop just to get a win. It doesn't always mean that they are working off three wheels.

                                        Out of curiosity, what if the first post was made about your friend's horse that you are convinced was 100 % sound going into the race and (apparently) dead coming out? Then someone went on the Internet and declared how disgusted she was with people like your friend? And your friend who is a "mess" happens to come on and read that bile.

                                        Sure it's an assumption but we all have the right to sling mud and assume the worst? Right?

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