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Rather than tagging onto the TC thread - Split Samples for Charlatan and Gamine in Arkansas are Positive

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    Rather than tagging onto the TC thread - Split Samples for Charlatan and Gamine in Arkansas are Positive

    As expected, Baffert will contest saying the positives are a result of contamination linked to one of the workers at the barn. Worker was on pain meds and wore a Salonpas patch on his back (which has a small amount of lidocaine). Claims the contamination was probably when worker put on the tongue ties on both horses.

    Gamine was more than nine-times over the limit, Charlatan was more than twice the limit.

    Let the games begin...

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...-back-positive
    Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth, And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; John Gilliespie Magee, Jr

    #2
    Charlatan is out of action, but I thought Gamine would be pointed to the Kentucky Oaks. Now what? She is listed as having 50 points and standing #12 in the Kentucky Oaks Point Standings.

    Comment

      Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by Maythehorsebewithme View Post
      Charlatan is out of action, but I thought Gamine would be pointed to the Kentucky Oaks. Now what? She is listed as having 50 points and standing #12 in the Kentucky Oaks Point Standings.
      Charlatan is out of the KD, possible for the Preakness which means BC is also not off the table at this time.

      AFAIK, Gamine is still 'racing' (ie, not on the bench or retired).

      At least some time for this investigation to follow process. Investigation does not start until split sample comes back positive so things begin now rather than when the first sample tested positive.
      Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth, And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; John Gilliespie Magee, Jr

      Comment


        #4
        Not defending anything here or arguing he should not be set down for any positive, But... it was a very, very common surface analgesic for humans, the same groom, recovering from a broken pelvis, handled both horses, the filly in an earlier race, in the saddling shed, tying both tongues, and that story is not as “lame” as most. And it is a permissible substance with 72 hr withdrawal time limits. Don't see any intent in this stupid screw up that still merits some disciplinary action, like negating any points.

        IIRC, both horses were under the management and care of a substitute trainer and his staff due to the COVID quarantine? They shipped to Oaklawn shortly before the race and their regular human crew watched it on the TV from Cali? BB is trainer of record and bears any blame but....this is kind of weird, like the rest of this year.

        Gamine will have time for a race or two this summer should they choose, not the one looking for spot.
        Last edited by findeight; Jul. 7, 2020, 11:18 AM.
        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by findeight View Post

          IIRC, both horses were under the management and care of a substitute trainer and his staff due to the COVID quarantine? They shipped to Oaklawn shortly before the race and their regular human crew watched it on the TV from Cali? BB is trainer of record and bears any blame but....this is kind of weird, like the rest of this year.
          BNT like Baffert with hundreds of horses in training at different racetracks always have assistants running the show at the molecular level. That’s not new, has nothing to do with COVID restrictions.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by findeight View Post
            Not defending anything here or arguing he should not be set down for any positive, But... it was a very, very common surface analgesic for humans, the same groom, recovering from a broken pelvis, handled both horses, the filly in an earlier race, in the saddling shed, tying both tongues, and that story is not as “lame” as most. And it is a permissible substance with 72 hr withdrawal time limits. Don't see any intent in this stupid screw up that still merits some disciplinary action, like negating any points.

            IIRC, both horses were under the management and care of a substitute trainer and his staff due to the COVID quarantine? They shipped to Oaklawn shortly before the race and their regular human crew watched it on the TV from Cali? BB is trainer of record and bears any blame but....this is kind of weird, like the rest of this year.

            Gamine will have time for a race or two this summer should they choose, not the one looking for spot.
            The "substitute trainer" in question was Jimmy Barnes, Baffert's longtime right hand man. Same guy who handled/trained American Pharoah throughout much of his Triple Crown campaign. Frankly I don't believe he wouldn't have known better. They all would have known better. Nine times the legal limit by accident?? Sure.

            Unless Oaklawn starts making up new rules, if they do take disciplinary action the first thing that will happen is that both horses will lose their wins along with the status and the money that came with them. The points are tied to the wins--they're not a separate issue to be decided upon later. If the wins are negated, the points disappear too. (Unless CDI decides to step in and say "Since it's Bob Baffert, we'll make an exception.") Frankly nothing would surprise me anymore.
            www.laurienberenson.com

            Comment

              Original Poster

              #7
              Since Charlatan is out of the KD, loss of points would be a non-issue. Prize money is a different issue.

              Is there such a thing as points for the Oaks? I don't recall. Loss of any possible Oaks points would hurt Gamine more.

              If I had to guess, Baffert might have actually been at Oaklawn on Derby day sans-COVID but who is to say if either Gamine or Charlatan would have raced in the Arkansas Derby/Oaks if there was a 'normal' race season.

              Even if the presence of lidocaine was unintentional, it sill happened and should have been guarded against if it was known the one worker was wearing that Salonpas patch and he should not have been allowed to touch any horse entered on the card that day given that 2 of the 3 Baffert entries were top contenders in their respective races.

              So, even if unintentional... sloppy, sloppy practice.
              Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth, And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; John Gilliespie Magee, Jr

              Comment


                #8
                Yes, there are points for the Oaks: https://www.kentuckyderby.com/horses/oaks/leaderboard
                www.laurienberenson.com

                Comment


                  #9
                  There are points for the Oaks, but Gamine's race at Oaklawn was an allowance optional claiming race. I can't believe that is a points race. So if she is dq'd she does not lose anything.
                  She has 50 points, must have been earned in the Acorn at Belmont.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Here is the Oaks Leaderboard:
                    https://www.kentuckyderby.com/horses/oaks/leaderboard

                    And, for a chuckle, check out the one on Bloodhorse. The link won't copy, but Vekoma is standing 2nd.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      A pain patch on a handler would not make a horse show 9 times over the limit... even if the handler rubbed his hands all over it and then put a tongue tie in

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
                        A pain patch on a handler would not make a horse show 9 times over the limit... even if the handler rubbed his hands all over it and then put a tongue tie in
                        I don't know about that, the tests are very sensitive. If the lidocaine did indeed come from the grooms patch it shows an appalling lack of hygiene, especially during a pandemic.

                        In my opinion (which obviously carries no weight) it doesn't matter how the lidocaine was introduced into the horses bloodstream, the horses should be DQd.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The trainer responsibility rule is very clear on this subject. Even if you were to witness someone giving your horse something and had video evidence it doesn't matter as the trainer is the absolute insurer. It is crazy easy to get a lidocaine positive, every trainer knows that. I feel bad for everyone involved but most Barnes. It's not very often you make a mistake at work that costs a client millions.
                          McDowell Racing Stables

                          Home Away From Home

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                            The trainer responsibility rule is very clear on this subject. Even if you were to witness someone giving your horse something and had video evidence it doesn't matter as the trainer is the absolute insurer. It is crazy easy to get a lidocaine positive, every trainer knows that. I feel bad for everyone involved but most Barnes. It's not very often you make a mistake at work that costs a client millions.
                            Baffert's last positive wasn't DQd was he? The CHRB let it slide. It remains to be seen if he will be held accountable.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Until trainers like Baffert are held accountable for the drug positives in their clients horses they will not change their sloppy barn practices or their cheating, take your pick.

                              It seems as if the trainer and the owner being hit hard in the wallet will have to happen before the drug rules are taken seriously. By some people.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by skydy View Post

                                Baffert's last positive wasn't DQd was he? The CHRB let it slide. It remains to be seen if he will be held accountable.
                                If you are referring to Justify they determined that was environment contamination which is apparently the one exception they will make to the trainer responsibility rule. I don’t see this as being the same but I guess you are right, we will see. I will be shocked if the DQ wasn’t upheld
                                McDowell Racing Stables

                                Home Away From Home

                                Comment

                                  Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Oaklawn Park has suspended Baffert for 15 days effective August 1.

                                  Charlatan and Gamine both DQ'd from their respective races on the May 2 Arkansas Derby card. Purse monies will be redistributed and elevating finish positions for horses finishing behind them.

                                  Baffert's attorney will appeal... surprise, surprise.

                                  Wonder what contingencies in the Charlatan - Hill'n'Dale contract are in place.

                                  Churchill Downs recognized the DQ by Charlatan although Charlatan was not expected to race in the KD in any case.
                                  Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth, And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; John Gilliespie Magee, Jr

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Good for Oaklawn!

                                    I think Baffert's attorneys will have a long row to hoe to win that appeal.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Someone pinch me, did hell just freeze over? Teflon Bob got the hammer, finally? by golly

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
                                        Someone pinch me, did hell just freeze over? Teflon Bob got the hammer, finally? by golly
                                        No matter how negative your feelings toward a person, schoolyard name calling does the name-caller no favors. It comes across as crass and juvenile.

                                        Comment

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