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Jockey Club Limits Stallion Books to 140 Mares

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  • Jockey Club Limits Stallion Books to 140 Mares

    Beginning with stallions born this year.

    I couldn't get a sense from the article if mares bred by a stallion shuttling to Australia would be counted in the 140 or not.

    Why is this specific to the U.S. Canada and Puerto Rico? Will it not apply to stallions standing in the UK?

  • #2
    Jockey Club doesnt have jurisdiction over the UK.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by halo View Post
      Jockey Club doesnt have jurisdiction over the UK.
      The "Jockey Club" started in the U.K. The U.S. Jockey Club can make different rules? Permitting A.I. for instance? I need some education here.

      Coolmore, Godolphin and other international breeders can get around this quite easily. It makes no sense to me.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, the U.S. Jockey Club rules don't apply outside the US/Canada/ PR but they do currently reciprocally recognize horses from other TB studbooks, so if they felt that it was warranted they could theoretically stop allowing horses from another country's studbook to race in the U.S. or have their offspring registered with the U.S. Jockey Club-- but I doubt this is that big of a deal. AI might be a deal breaker.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by Highflyer View Post
          Yes, the U.S. Jockey Club rules don't apply outside the US/Canada/ PR but they do currently reciprocally recognize horses from other TB studbooks, so if they felt that it was warranted they could theoretically stop allowing horses from another country's studbook to race in the U.S. or have their offspring registered with the U.S. Jockey Club-- but I doubt this is that big of a deal. AI might be a deal breaker.
          Oh, I'm sure A.I. would be a deal breaker.

          Comment


          • #6
            Im really confused by this whole thing. When they originally stated they were going to try something like this, it was the total opposite of what they did. Originally, they were going to allow first and second year sires unlimited mares, and limit all other stallions to 140. Now they did the total opposite, allowing all stallions older than 2020 unlimited mares, and limiting stallions born 2020 and after. How exactly is that supposed to help genetic diversity, when Tapit had 30 or more sons breeding mares, with several more graded stakes horses in the pipeline. Im sure they have an agenda for doing this, but Im thinking genetic diversity has little to do with it. Maybe more like "farm" diversity.

            Comment


            • #7
              Since it doesn't affect the horses who are shuttled, it leaves Coolmore, etc. alone. I wouldn't think that the jockey Club would pick a fight with them, but I also would imagine that there is no jurisdiction.

              Does anyone have the numbers for 2018 to see which stallions are actually affected? And are we talking about the whole book- or the number of foals produced? They can breed only 140, correct? And no more than 140 stallion certificates will be issued.

              So, if a horse has any fertility problems, their numbers will be substantially affected. Then again, how many of those are actually kept around, and would draw those kind of numbers?

              Slightly off topic from this....There was a Northern Dancer son up here who was known for being really sub-fertile. There was also a breeding Vet who was a whiz. The horse was **reinforced** and then some. I always wondered how carefully they toed the line with him, but he was popular and very successful as a sire.
              When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
              www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
              http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
                Since it doesn't affect the horses who are shuttled, it leaves Coolmore, etc. alone. I wouldn't think that the jockey Club would pick a fight with them, but I also would imagine that there is no jurisdiction.

                Does anyone have the numbers for 2018 to see which stallions are actually affected? And are we talking about the whole book- or the number of foals produced? They can breed only 140, correct? And no more than 140 stallion certificates will be issued.

                So, if a horse has any fertility problems, their numbers will be substantially affected. Then again, how many of those are actually kept around, and would draw those kind of numbers?

                Slightly off topic from this....There was a Northern Dancer son up here who was known for being really sub-fertile. There was also a breeding Vet who was a whiz. The horse was **reinforced** and then some. I always wondered how carefully they toed the line with him, but he was popular and very successful as a sire.
                No stallions standing now are affected. The rule applies to stallions born in 2020 or later.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by skydy View Post

                  No stallions standing now are affected. The rule applies to stallions born in 2020 or later.
                  Understood. I am simply looking for today's **baseline**, to get a better understanding of the numbers of horses who might be affected. I realize that Tapit isn't on the list...

                  Perhaps the market will contract, and it won't matter, but I would be interested in knowing the approximate number of horses standing today that would be affected IF this was happening now.
                  When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                  www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                  http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

                    Understood. I am simply looking for today's **baseline**, to get a better understanding of the numbers of horses who might be affected. I realize that Tapit isn't on the list...

                    Perhaps the market will contract, and it won't matter, but I would be interested in knowing the approximate number of horses standing today that would be affected IF this was happening now.
                    Gotcha. Here;http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.as...RMB&letter=all

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by skydy View Post
                      Thanks so much!!

                      That list is fascinating, to me. Can anyone who gets this stuff explain why the numbers of the top fifty or so are where they are? Obviously, I get Justify, from the standpoint of being one of the few by his sire, and a triple crown winner. How are the numbers on the others so high- is it all siring winners (Into Mischief), prospective reputation, sales prices? I do not recognize all of the names of the top fifty as being super sires (which is about where the 140 number comes in). Can I get some help with education here? I'd really appreciate it! If this is a hijack- I'll start another thread!
                      When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                      www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                      http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

                        Thanks so much!!

                        That list is fascinating, to me. Can anyone who gets this stuff explain why the numbers of the top fifty or so are where they are? Obviously, I get Justify, from the standpoint of being one of the few by his sire, and a triple crown winner. How are the numbers on the others so high- is it all siring winners (Into Mischief), prospective reputation, sales prices? I do not recognize all of the names of the top fifty as being super sires (which is about where the 140 number comes in). Can I get some help with education here? I'd really appreciate it! If this is a hijack- I'll start another thread!
                        Not a hijack.

                        I'm not really sure what you are asking. Are you wondering why certain stallions have large books and why others don't?

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          I'm wondering what happens if your mare needs two covers to conceive? Is there anything that will address that issue or is everyone involved just out of luck if/when that happens?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Isn't it covered (as it were) that the SO receives a Service Certificate for each mare bred with the late of the last cover. Seems like one mare with more than one cover still counts as '1' with respect to the 140 limit as the only date of cover is the last one, not all cover dates?
                            When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It doesn't restrict covers, just mares.

                              Also the service certificate gets issued after you pay the fee. Since most mares are live foal guarantee, there is already a foal on the ground when the service certificate gets issued.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                That's something at least. I'm still not sure how this will help TB breed genetic diversity, since breeding is now quite the international endeavor.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  But surely it does stop a few stallions covering 250 - 300 mares and therefore supports more diverse breeding? The really big international outfits do move stallions around so they have different pools of mares.
                                  "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Willesdon View Post
                                    But surely it does stop a few stallions covering 250 - 300 mares and therefore supports more diverse breeding? The really big international outfits do move stallions around so they have different pools of mares.
                                    It apparently only stops stallions that stand in the U.S. Canada and Puerto Rico from exceeding a 140 mare book. If stallions are shuttled to the Southern hemisphere from the U.S. there is no stopping a horse from exceeding the 140 mares allowed ( if it is true that the U.S. Jockey Club will not be counting mares bred outside of the U.S. Canada and Puerto Rico.)

                                    Coolmore, Godolphin et al, shuttle stallions from the U.S. and the U.K. to Australia and South America every year. They do have a glut of Galileo, Danehill etc...

                                    Japan needs something other than Sunday Silence, which is why Japan though obviously breeding on a smaller scale than the U.S. and U.K. has been buying good U.S. broodmare stock for years now, and has lately invested in some real sire power.

                                    I'm not sure what impact this rule will really have when you look at the big picture. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of some active TB breeders.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by skydy View Post

                                      Not a hijack.

                                      I'm not really sure what you are asking. Are you wondering why certain stallions have large books and why others don't?
                                      I get why a stallion like Justify is getting a huge start. I am curious as to how some of the others play into this. Great runners? High prices at sales? As you go down the list, to the horses getting 30 or so mares, there are still some great names, but I am assuming that they just bring in the returns?
                                      When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                                      www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                                      http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I don’t think shuttle stallions are as big of a threat to genetic diversity than a market where buyers only want to purchase horses if they are by a top 5 stallion, or by the first year son of a top 5 stallion.

                                        Shuttle stallions can actually promote genetic diversity at times.

                                        With that said, I don’t think a 140 mare book does much to increase genetic diversity. A 140 mare book is still large enough that it won’t force anyone to consider different blood.

                                        But I do think it’s the right move for the horses and a long time coming. I don’t think situations where stallions go to the shed, on average, at least 2x a day, every day, over several months is healthy in the long term (whether it’s modern 200+ mare books or mares getting multiple covers in the past). I say this because of how early we lose our heavily used TB stallions. Dying of “infirmities of old age” at 20 years of age shouldn’t be a thing in modern times with the top care these horses receive.
                                        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

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