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California Chrome?

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  • Originally posted by summerhorse View Post

    Um this one where they have the most money and pay the highest prices except for Coolmore. Not everything is racist, it is just a fact, they can outbid everyone else.
    Um, you are wrong. There are people who do not belong to either of the ethnic groups you've singled out, who are winning bidders at the sales. The buyer is the person who wants the horse the most.

    I hope you understand that the reason California Chrome went to Japan was because they wanted him the most, not because other interests couldn't afford to buy him.

    You also have no idea how much people pay for horses that are sold and/or syndicated privately, and you don't know who they are either.

    Your rather crude generalization only highlights how much you don't understand about TB breeding and sales.
    Last edited by skydy; May. 19, 2020, 07:13 PM. Reason: To add

    Comment


    • summerhorse Did you read LaurieB's post? Did you learn anything from it?

      Most North American TB breeders were not interested in California Chrome's bloodline and/or his physical, and what he was getting wasn't appealing to breeders or buyers.

      Japan is thrilled to have him. Be happy!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by skydy View Post

        Um, you are wrong. There are people who do not belong to either of the ethnic groups you've singled out, who are winning bidders at the sales. The buyer is the person who wants the horse the most.

        I hope you understand that the reason California Chrome went to Japan was because they wanted him the most, not because other interests couldn't afford to buy him.

        You also have no idea how much people pay for horses that are sold and/or syndicated privately, and you don't know who they are either.

        Your rather crude generalization only highlights how much you don't understand about TB breeding and sales.
        No where did I say they were the ONLY people who were winning bidders, obviously they are not. They simply have deep pockets and along with Coolmore can outbid most people IF they want the horse the most and why is someone else's reference to the lure of IRISH money OK? but Japanese and Arab states money not? There is no slight in observing that some nations' breeders are more blessed economically than others. I think we'd all like to trade bank accounts with them.

        I simply expressed how I felt that Chrome didn't get a chance here, obviously yes they sold him because the interest was not here. And I know you cannot make real comparisons from different eras, it is still IMO a shame that the Thoroughbred world is now run by corporations like wall street businesses. Good for the bottom line but not so good for horses or little people. But it is what it is.

        You seem to read way more into people's posts than are actually meant, I don't know why you have to be so derogatory to other posters when you disagree.
        Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

        Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

          When it comes to California Chrome, there is always this mysterious group "they" who is blamed for his leaving the country. "they didn't even give him a chance..." CC is a horse with a million disappointed, very vocal fans, people who all loved him more than anything else in the world. So think about this--if just 10% of those fervent fans had purchased a TB mare and paid CC's $40,000 stud fee for the first few years, the horse would probably still be here. Instead "they" too chose not to give him a chance.

          I was a fan of California Chrome when he was racing, but I felt the same way as many other breeders. He didn't excite me as a stallion prospect (of which only 10% succeed at stud anyway). Rough estimate, it would cost me ~100k from time of breeding to get a foal of his to the racetrack at two. Why should I be expected to spend so much money on a horse that doesn't thrill me when I can breed to one that does for less?

          I wish CC well. Whether he succeeds or not is immaterial to me. He just wasn't the horse for me (or a number of other breeders). I'm continually mystified why that is so hard for people to accept.
          I'm sure if they could have afforded to do that they would have. I think "they" would be the owners who sold him? IDK just a guess. I don't think anyone would expect you to spend big bucks breeding to a horse you don't like, whoever he was! That would make no sense.
          Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

          Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
            I hate that they didn't even give him a chance to succeed here. I remember Samuel Riddle turned down $1 million for Man O' War back when the leading money earner's winnings (his) was $100,000. He said a lot of men could have a million dollars but only one could have Man O' War. Nowadays he'd be sold to the highest bidder in a heartbeat and only the Arabs and Japanese can pay top dollar. It's just too bad that fans can't even count on ever seeing him in person again (well unless he comes back here as an oldster). But the other part of me hopes he becomes the second Sunday Silence at stud just to show them their folly. :-D
            This is what you said. It's pretty straightforward. I didn't "read more into it".

            Bolding is mine.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by summerhorse View Post

              No where did I say they were the ONLY people who were winning bidders, obviously they are not. They simply have deep pockets and along with Coolmore can outbid most people IF they want the horse the most and why is someone else's reference to the lure of IRISH money OK? but Japanese and Arab states money not? There is no slight in observing that some nations' breeders are more blessed economically than others. I think we'd all like to trade bank accounts with them.

              I simply expressed how I felt that Chrome didn't get a chance here, obviously yes they sold him because the interest was not here. And I know you cannot make real comparisons from different eras, it is still IMO a shame that the Thoroughbred world is now run by corporations like wall street businesses. Good for the bottom line but not so good for horses or little people. But it is what it is.

              You seem to read way more into people's posts than are actually meant, I don't know why you have to be so derogatory to other posters when you disagree.
              Bolding is mine. My last post was my response to your post, quoted here.
              Last edited by skydy; May. 20, 2020, 08:37 PM. Reason: To correct the confusing sentence

              Comment


              • Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
                I simply expressed how I felt that Chrome didn't get a chance here, obviously yes they sold him because the interest was not here. And I know you cannot make real comparisons from different eras, it is still IMO a shame that the Thoroughbred world is now run by corporations like wall street businesses. Good for the bottom line but not so good for horses or little people. But it is what it is
                What kind of "chance" would be acceptable to keep CC around when the US interest was lacking and there was interest in other countries? Even you appear to be making contradictory statements.

                He didn't get a chance + interest not being here. When do you stop paying for a horse that isn't "wanted" for the purpose for which that horse was acquired? Rather than selling to some foreign country, keep feeding him with perhaps a smaller and smaller book each year and make money by offering Chromie tours? Or maybe sell him to some farm in Indiana so he can cover mares for $2500?

                A big farm has a big budget and, short of retiring a successful stallion after their breeding career is over, they are not an equine charity. The business, to make the IRS and owners happy, needs to make money. It is what it is.

                What chance should CC been given to justify him staying in the US?
                When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

                Comment


                • So I will weigh in from harness racing land. I know it's vastly different .

                  I am not going so far as to say it's a shame CalChrome is overseas because maybe, and hopefully, he will do wonderfully there. I also 100% believe given his accomplishments and notoriety he will be just fine so all the Chromies need to calm TF down.

                  But I will tell you..my general observation is, the US gives up extremely quickly on bloodlines that aren't popular. In the standardbred world, the overseas contingent (Europe, AUS and NZ) have cashed in nicely on US's outcasts.

                  My current lament, and example, is a painfully off-bred trotter (pacing-bred sire, trotting-bred dam) who beat everything there was to beat here in the states at 3, but got no respect at all here as a sire. He got exported prior to his oldest reaching 3...to a full book of mares in Sweden. Meanwhile here in the states, what little support he got has yielded great results. And Europe latched onto him early, so they already have some stars via frozen semen over there.

                  This is the way it is here now. You better be fashionably bred, or hit the bricks. The horse I reference above is a great example of just straight talent accounting for something. If you want to get into bloodlines, this horse I am talking about, his eighth - EIGHTH - dam is one of the finest standardbred trotters in history. Rosalind. You might've read a book about her.

                  No one is looking that far back, but I will tell you, this horse, not unlike his eighth dam, was freak fast.

                  I don't know one iota about TB bloodlines, but I get the sense CalChrome is a similar freak; no close-up bloodlines to speak of and performed well above his trajectory.

                  Not to predict, but freak speed doesn't really go away. I hope, and suspect, he does fantastically in Japan.

                  Comment


                  • Big_Tag and summerhorse I totally get what you're saying. I hope California Chrome is a success in Japan too. The Japanese have been very supportive of the U.S Thoroughbred industry. I hope they got a good one. But it wouldn't change my feelings about wanting to breed to the horse myself.

                    Here's an analogy. Suppose your mother picks out a man she thinks would be perfect for you to marry. Maybe he's a nice guy, very smart and wholly unobjectionable. Your mother loves him. But for whatever reason, you aren't attracted to him. He just isn't the man for you. That doesn't mean you're stupid or short-sighted. It doesn't mean that the guy is a total loser. It just means you have options that you find more appealing.

                    That's how I (and other American TB breeders) feel about CC.

                    Last edited by LaurieB; May. 21, 2020, 10:07 AM. Reason: clarity
                    www.laurienberenson.com

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      The one person that continued to support Chrome throughout his career, his stud career and even now in Japan is one of his original owners, Martin. Yet he is the person who has been constantly vilified by the Chromies, even though he has gone to far greater lengths than most to promote Chrome's success. Chrome did show some talent for the grass, and I believe that the Japanese breeders are far more interested in turf horses than the Americans. Perhaps by having Chrome's best interests at heart, Martin is trying to do the best thing for him in the long run. I also believe that he has continued to retain some financial interest in the horse.

                      Comment


                      • I keep coming back to thinking of Sunday Silence. Performed well on the track (KD, Preakness, BC Classic, HOY in 1989) but certainly wasn't well respected in the US breeding shed. Full ownership to Japan where he started his breeding career in 1991 and was an incredible sire.

                        Would Sunday Silence have produced in the US what he produced in Japan? No way to know. What is known is that Sunday Silence *did* make a name and reputation for himself in the shed in Japan. He made that legacy in just 11 years (before passing away at 16).

                        Perhaps the same will happen to CC. Not the respect that some feel he deserved in the US sheds. Maybe he'll be another Sunday Silence with a huge legacy in Japan.

                        IMO, isn't "better" if a stallion goes to where they are wanted and with a potential opportunity to create their own legacy rather than staying in the country where they were bred and raced but close to ignored?
                        When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

                        Comment


                        • I think Chrome is better suited to Japan, in the US he would probably have ended up as a regional stallion. In Japan he will most likely get better mares and a better chance.

                          Comment


                          • I don't think the people who are upset that he's in Japan care much about his legacy.

                            They're disappointed that they can't visit him which is understandable.


                            The hostility, resentment and downright nuttiness expressed by some of the CC "fans" toward his connections is not understandable, it's weird.
                            Last edited by skydy; May. 21, 2020, 10:19 PM. Reason: punctuation

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Big_Tag View Post
                              . . .

                              This is the way it is here now. You better be fashionably bred, or hit the bricks. The horse I reference above is a great example of just straight talent accounting for something. If you want to get into bloodlines, this horse I am talking about, his eighth - EIGHTH - dam is one of the finest standardbred trotters in history. Rosalind. You might've read a book about her.

                              No one is looking that far back, but I will tell you, this horse, not unlike his eighth dam, was freak fast.
                              You just inspired me to pull out my childhood copy of Born to Trot, published two years before I was born. Such a beautifully written story about some amazing characters, especially Rosalind.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BAC View Post

                                You just inspired me to pull out my childhood copy of Born to Trot, published two years before I was born. Such a beautifully written story about some amazing characters, especially Rosalind.
                                There's a great SI Vault story, complete with pics and some rare film footage shot by Gibson White, about Rosalind, Greyhound, and their world record tandem trot.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by BAC View Post

                                  You just inspired me to pull out my childhood copy of Born to Trot, published two years before I was born. Such a beautifully written story about some amazing characters, especially Rosalind.

                                  I worked on a Standardbred breeding farm for several years and every mare that came in had me looking at the Sires & Dams books for a Rosalind connection 🙂
                                  ****Indecision may or may not be my problem****

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Mara View Post

                                    There's a great SI Vault story, complete with pics and some rare film footage shot by Gibson White, about Rosalind, Greyhound, and their world record tandem trot.
                                    I will have to try and locate that, thanks.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by BAC View Post

                                      I will have to try and locate that, thanks.
                                      I found it by Googling "Gibson White". COTH software wouldn't let me link....

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