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Breeder’s Cup 2019

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  • mommy peanut
    started a topic Breeder’s Cup 2019

    Breeder’s Cup 2019

    Some of the current BC news & works

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/breeders-cup

    FRIDAY’S RACES...

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...s-cup-juvenile

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...-juvenile-turf

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...venile-fillies

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...e-fillies-turf

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...le-turf-sprint

    SATURDAY’S RACES...
    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ly-mare-sprint

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...up-turf-sprint

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...-cup-dirt-mile

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...illy-mare-turf

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ers-cup-sprint

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...eders-cup-mile

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...rs-cup-distaff

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...eders-cup-turf

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...rs-cup-classic
    Last edited by mommy peanut; Oct. 21, 2019, 06:05 PM.

  • endlessclimb
    replied
    Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
    Natalie Voss' article: https://www.paulickreport.com/news/r...-exam-history/

    She is one of the very few objective and thorough journalists out there. That Lameness Locator is cool.

    https://equinosis.com/lameness-locat...ss-evaluation/
    The Lameness Locator was put on my mare on one of her trips to Purdue (free of charge, due to my frequent flier miles... ha!). It was really neat to see the data it produced.

    Leave a comment:


  • Texarkana
    replied
    Originally posted by Laurierace View Post

    That was interesting although I agree that it likely had less to do with giving bute and more to do with needing bute for something which goes back to the altering the gait thing we were talking about above.
    My thoughts, too.

    Bute has been around for a really long time. It came into prevalence in the late 1940s I believe. While rules against its use in competition came about almost immediately, we couldn't regulate it because we couldn't reliably test for it until much later; sometime in the 1960s I believe. I know by the late 1960s they had their first DQ from the Kentucky Derby for a bute overage.

    My point of all this is that if there is a direct correlation between use of the NSAID itself and breakdowns, we've been running and training horses on it for over 70 years. Its use certainly wouldn't explain any recent spikes in injuries (Santa Anita, etc.), unless it is interacting negatively with other medications we use today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
    BH has an article on a study of the EID over the last 10 years that will add bute as a risk factor for catastrophic breakdowns. Probably a non-issue in CA but will call for zero tolerance on race-day.
    Thanks for the article, there are some interesting statistics:

    "While there's no way to break out a single change to measure impact in California, which besides overhauling its medication rules also put in safety measures such as additional pre-race exams, catastrophic breakdowns during racing have been greatly reduced under the new standards. Since Santa Anita reopened March 29 and through the Los Alamitos Race Course, Del Mar, and Santa Anita fall meet that followed, the equine fatality rate in Southern California has been 1.09 per 1,000 starts. Based on Equine Injury Database numbers, that 1.09 rate is 35% lower than the rate for the United States and Canada in 2018 of 1.68.

    During the time period the zero-tolerance policy has been in place in California, the average starters per race in Southern California is 7.13, down from the 7.62 average at these tracks in 2018. Again, in terms of determining impact, it's difficult to break out a single change from the many new rules and protocols put in place in California this year.

    The study also provided some insight on the always-hot topic of race-day Lasix (or Salix). The South American study found no link between Lasix use and breakdowns. Zambruno noted that one of the racecourses in the study prohibited bute but allowed Lasix, administered by regulatory vets. In looking at numbers for that track, the study found no correlation between Lasix and breakdowns.

    Leave a comment:


  • Where'sMyWhite
    replied
    Originally posted by Laurierace View Post

    That was interesting although I agree that it likely had less to do with giving bute and more to do with needing bute for something which goes back to the altering the gait thing we were talking about above.
    This I would agree with... not bute in of itself but in masking pain that may result in a stressed skeletal system. The article does start by staying that bute increases the risk factor and should result in zero tolerance for bute on race-day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Laurierace
    replied
    Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
    Will be interesting to see what, in specific, Dr Bramlage's investigation turns up WRT Mongolian Groom. So many possibilities of how this injury could have happened and why was or was not something seen in the days leading up to the race.

    BH has an article on a study of the EID over the last 10 years that will add bute as a risk factor for catastrophic breakdowns. Probably a non-issue in CA but will call for zero tolerance on race-day.
    That was interesting although I agree that it likely had less to do with giving bute and more to do with needing bute for something which goes back to the altering the gait thing we were talking about above.

    Leave a comment:


  • Where'sMyWhite
    replied
    Will be interesting to see what, in specific, Dr Bramlage's investigation turns up WRT Mongolian Groom. So many possibilities of how this injury could have happened and why was or was not something seen in the days leading up to the race.

    BH has an article on a study of the EID over the last 10 years that will add bute as a risk factor for catastrophic breakdowns. Probably a non-issue in CA but will call for zero tolerance on race-day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Texarkana
    replied
    Originally posted by Laurierace View Post

    What they don’t mention is how oftentimes a catastrophic injury can come from an alteration in the gait when a horse is favoring something. Like they don’t want to dig in completely with the left front so they dig in even more with the right front and that leg gives way. It can be diagonal pairs as well like left front is hurting and the right hind goes. Any time you change the way any part of the body is moving it effects everywhere else.
    IIRC, two of the items on the crazy list of breakdown predictors were an incident of tying up within the past XX days (can't remember what exactly) and history of back soreness, which is why the MG article triggered memories of that list. And going along completely with what you said, both of those things could affect load-bearing on the limbs, which could dramatically increase the risk of catastrophic injury despite being "sound."

    I think vets' willingness to exclude things like back pain and a recent incident of tying up from consideration of overall soundness is a symptom of a bigger problem with medicine that extends far beyond racing. All of medicine (veterinary and human) has departed from viewing the patient as a whole and instead is hyperfocused on treating symptoms. Treat the back pain, treat the horse for tying up, and be done with it. It's the same with humans-- run a test, give a drug to address whatever is awry in the test, or send them to a specialist. Very few doctors stop to look at how the problem relates to the entirety of the patient.

    Leave a comment:


  • Laurierace
    replied
    Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
    Laurierace , thanks for the link to that article. First I've seen from this viewpoint. What was said makes perfect sense to me including that Mongolian Groom was gone over with a fine tooth comb many times in the days leading up to the Classic. Also more of an explanation of this type of injury as, IMO, it didn't follow the normal course of a catastrophic breakdown (ie, hind rather than fore leg).



    Sounds also like the delay gave the vet time a chance to not only evaluate the severity of the fracture but also assess blood flow below the injury prior to the decision to euthanize.
    What they don’t mention is how oftentimes a catastrophic injury can come from an alteration in the gait when a horse is favoring something. Like they don’t want to dig in completely with the left front so they dig in even more with the right front and that leg gives way. It can be diagonal pairs as well like left front is hurting and the right hind goes. Any time you change the way any part of the body is moving it effects everywhere else.

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Natalie Voss' article: https://www.paulickreport.com/news/r...-exam-history/

    She is one of the very few objective and thorough journalists out there. That Lameness Locator is cool.

    https://equinosis.com/lameness-locat...ss-evaluation/

    Leave a comment:


  • Where'sMyWhite
    replied
    Laurierace , thanks for the link to that article. First I've seen from this viewpoint. What was said makes perfect sense to me including that Mongolian Groom was gone over with a fine tooth comb many times in the days leading up to the Classic. Also more of an explanation of this type of injury as, IMO, it didn't follow the normal course of a catastrophic breakdown (ie, hind rather than fore leg).

    “We know from that type of injury to the pastern, it is not a pre-existing problem–it is an acute injury,” said Baker, who added that Mongolian Groom had shown no prior problems or unsoundness issues at the site of the catastrophic breakdown. “It is an acute twisting injury–a typical turf injury, where a horse puts a foot into the surface and they twist on it but there’s no give.”
    Sounds also like the delay gave the vet time a chance to not only evaluate the severity of the fracture but also assess blood flow below the injury prior to the decision to euthanize.

    Leave a comment:


  • ASB Stars
    replied
    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

    Mongolian Groom got into the BC Classic on his own merits by winning a "Win and You're In" G1 race. The reason he had to pay supplemental money was because he had not previously been Breeders Cup nominated--which has nothing to do with his ability as a racehorse.

    Many, if not most, TBs are nominated as foals by their breeders. MG was not--and if you miss that early window, the price to nominate becomes pretty prohibitive.
    Thanks for the explanation.

    Leave a comment:


  • snaffle1987
    replied
    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
    Todd Pletcher's take on what happened to Mongolian Groom:



    http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...-to-do-better/
    i agree wholeheartedly with Todd Pletcher

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    So he tied up, which is why it was hard to tell if it was his left or right hind, since it was both.

    "Baker–Mongolian Groom’s veterinarian since the horse arrived in California over two years ago, he said–told the TDN via telephone Wednesday that the horse “tied-up” after the workout, and afterwards, was muscle-sore along his back, catching the attention of regulatory veterinarians from the Breeders’ Cup, Santa Anita and the California Horse Racing Board (CHRB).

    “The regulatory group, including the Breeders’ Cup, watched him train on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and on Thursday they said, ‘now, he’s completely normal,'” said Baker, who added that the horse was given the green light to race by the “best pre-race veterinarians” in the country.

    “Every day they watched him on the track, and then they came back to the barn and checked him,” said Baker, who described Mongolian Groom as a “low-maintenance” horse, in terms of veterinary intervention, throughout his career."

    Leave a comment:


  • LaurieB
    replied
    Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

    I am in full agreement with everything you have said. But for the sake of conversation... does any of this apply to an $11,000 yearling by a $2,500 stallion? I'm surprised he was consigned as a yearling in the first place; he must have been an incredible specimen. Then again, despite a modest pedigree, he did have deep pockets behind him from the start...
    I was under the impression that Pletcher was talking about the rash of breakdowns that had happened this year, and not Mongolian Groom specifically. That was what I replied to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Texarkana
    replied
    Thanks for sharing.

    I expected a statement like this. It makes sense; we hold thousands of other horses to this same standard.

    But it does give me pause as to whether we should re-evaluated our standard for horses with pre-existing conditions. This is not a new thought for me; it's something I've been mulling over for years. I don't know if anyone remembers, but years ago (probably over a decade ago), some crackpot poster came on here saying he could predict all breakdowns. He had a complicated spreadsheet that basically included dozens upon dozens of different "risk factors." The hilarious part was that all the "risk factors" were part of every day racehorse life; most were unavoidable. None of them could be used to predict a breakdown because they basically encompassed every thoroughbred on the planet. We all laughed at his list and ran him off. But a few of his alleged "risk factors" stuck in the back of my mind. Every now and then, something like this happens and I wonder if they would be worth revisiting.

    But I'm just rattling random thoughts here...

    Leave a comment:


  • Laurierace
    replied
    http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...LBZDI.facebook

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

    OK. Just for the sake of discussion what do you think of the records of those horses who were flown across the pond to compete? I ask this as in comparison to Mongolian Groom? Did any of them even need to be supplemented? Or were their records such that they were standing on their own merit and they had gotten in based upon their record?
    Makes no sense. He had to be supplemented because at no point in time prior to that did anyone think he was a Breeders Cup horse. So following the money, how much did it cost to get 30 vets from all over the place to go in on this profitable scheme? It’s ridiculous to think there is any kind of money motive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Where'sMyWhite
    replied
    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
    Many, if not most, TBs are nominated as foals by their breeders. MG was not--and if you miss that early window, the price to nominate becomes pretty prohibitive.
    Like my mare. BC nominated and never set foot on a track (no lip tat). But, inexpensive when nominated early, pricey if done later...

    Leave a comment:


  • Texarkana
    replied
    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

    I don't think his finger pointing is a bad thing. The sales have become an end goal all their own and many TB yearlings are currently raised with a view toward maximizing their sales potential, rather than their racing potential.

    If you bubble wrap a foal nearly from birth, restrict its opportunities to rough-and-tumble with its peers, manage its turnout so it never sees bad weather, overfeed it, swim the heck out of it to build muscle, and use surgery to correct every imperfection, chances are you're not going to raise a racehorse. You will, however, in most cases get yourself a yearling that brings lots of money at a sale.

    I was talking to a friend in September who buys 10-12 pretty pricey yearlings every year to race. He said he'd realized that the more money he spent on a yearling (higher cost translating to "better" looking, meaning they look more like 2yos than yearlings) the less likely they were to ever make a single start. Well, duh.

    And yet buyers still want the over-sized, over-muscled, over-fat horses who never had the chance to build strong bone, or run with their buddies, or learn to compete by bouncing around a big field in all kinds of weather. And they're willing to pay a premium for them. And then those premium horses end up with the top trainers. The system is upside down.

    So yes, I think Todd Pletcher had a point.
    I am in full agreement with everything you have said. But for the sake of conversation... does any of this apply to an $11,000 yearling by a $2,500 stallion? I'm surprised he was consigned as a yearling in the first place; he must have been an incredible specimen. Then again, despite a modest pedigree, he did have deep pockets behind him from the start...

    Leave a comment:

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