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Breeder’s Cup 2019

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  • Originally posted by Mara View Post
    Statements like that had better be backed up with solid eyes-on evidence. It's bad enough without a bunch of keyboard jocks slinging rumors.

    I find it hard to believe the horse wouldn't have been scratched by officials after the second funny step in a workout; protocols were beyond stringent this year - a good thing.

    Video can be deceiving. Just read through any thread on COTH with an accompanying video; even on "critique my eq" threads someone always pipes up saying the horse looks off in the left hind. Cue the next person who says no, it's the right shoulder. And in fact the horse is perfectly sound, which we would see is the case if we had the horse right in front of us. Even I commented on the Keeneland Sept. Sale thread that, in the video of the $8.2 million filly in the ring, some of the angles made it look like her legs were crooked; obviously the camera does distort!
    Video here. https://mobile.twitter.com/CantBeatS...38413395496960

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    • 🤬. Although I can’t decide if it’s his left or right or both. I need to see them from behind, then turning.

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      • The 10/26 video sure does not look like a sound horse...First I thought left hind, then when looking full screen, looks like he's trying get off right hind as quickly as possible. It was the next day that he breezed and trainer said "not happy, too slow, I dont know why"
        https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...-of-bc-classic

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        • Originally posted by arnikalm View Post
          I'm actually a bit more upset after reading a few comments that Mongolian Groom was apparently lame behind during workout on 10/31/19. Seems there was a video showing it but it's been pulled from the site now. This is from the horseracingnation article posted earlier. https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne...p_Classic_123# "The video where Mongolian Groom was lame behind was when he was galloping on 10/31. This was after the workout where his saddle slipped. XBTV has taken down all videos of him. Here is the link to where it was, which now just shows an error page:
          https://www.xbtv.com/video/..."
          For what it's worth - I was able to view the video (last link) - it hasn't been taken down if anyone wants to have a look.

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          • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
            🤬. Although I can’t decide if it’s his left or right or both. I need to see them from behind, then turning.
            And flexion tests.

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            • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

              I am incredibly skeptical of your claims and the rumors you are perpetuating.

              The organizers of the Breeders Cup have known for months that they would be under a microscope. The vets were scratching horses left and right for any hint of perceived imperfection. There were 4 vet scratches for Nov. 2nd alone. (Source: https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ers-cup-sprint)

              If there was truly video of Mongolian Groom working despite of lameness a mere two days before the race, there is no way it would have gone unnoticed and unaddressed by the stewards, vets, and organizers.

              So if you are going to spread these rumors, you better come baring actual evidence instead of hearsay and dead links.
              The video was still up on Twitter Sunday. I can't imagine what would make a horse move like that except an injury to his left hind,
              madeline
              * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

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              • Originally posted by 2tempe View Post
                The 10/26 video sure does not look like a sound horse...First I thought left hind, then when looking full screen, looks like he's trying get off right hind as quickly as possible. It was the next day that he breezed and trainer said "not happy, too slow, I dont know why"
                https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...-of-bc-classic
                More quotes from the above link:

                "I am not very happy," Ganbat said. "He was much slower today. I don't (think it was the track) because Improbable breezed five-eighths in :59.20. If the track was slow, (Improbable) shouldn't have been able to go so fast."

                "I'm trying to understand why he ran slower today, but I can't say anything about how he will run in the Breeders' Cup," Ganbat said. "No one knows what will happen tomorrow."

                RIP Mongolian Groom



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                • Thank you to those who shared the link. I was shocked such a video surfaced.

                  I'm still having a hard time rationalizing how Mongolian Groom could have slipped through the cracks.

                  I have a first hand account from a former employer who was there with horses entered saying how the attention to detail given to horse exams leading up to the races was unlike anything he had ever experienced. Vets were scratching horses from leading international trainers like Aiden O'Brien, who had flown horses across the world just for the Breeder's Cup, due to perceived risk.

                  So how on earth does Mongolian Groom fly under the radar when, in hindsight, there were plenty of troublesome signs?

                  It doesn't make sense. I hope there is something we can learn from this.
                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

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                  • I have a hard time with the video. Most of it he does look like he is trantering. But the few fleeting moments where is actually extended trotting; he is visibly off on his left hind leg. Which leaves the question... why did NO ONE from Santa Anita see this and investigate it. But he mustve jogged sound for the vets in order to make it to the starting gate that day

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                    • It was really interesting to read comments from people who have not been boots on the ground regarding Santa Anita and the new protocols. Shug McGaughey was pretty upset at the track not because he felt it was unsafe but because it was unfair. He thought it was like beach sand and he implored the track maintenance people to tighten it down for the races so his horse had a fighting chance to come from off the pace but of course they ignored him. The theory is that the softer the track, the less likely to have a catastrophic.

                      I have seen the video. I'm hesitant to make a judgment based on a clip. For one thing, a horse can move differently on different surfaces. I would have wanted to see him jog on the road and be flexed before I would come to a conclusion. The protocols in place were different than any other horse related sporting event including the Olympics. The race trainers past and present on this thread, did you ever go to a track where a vet could come to your barn without notice and demand that you pull out a horse at random who is not even entered in a race and basically do a PPE exam including flexion tests and X Rays? All because maybe the last work was a little slow or the pattern of works didn't look good or the horse is coming off a layoff. The week before the Breeders Cup, friends of mine had a horse vet scratched in the morning before the race because the horse was coming off a layoff in which she had surgery, the ankle was cold and tight and she flexed fine but there was a bump and one ankle was bigger. Since this will follow you all over the country, the horse is effectively retired and she is in the sale as a broodmare prospect.

                      Someone and probably a bunch of someone's had to sign a form on Mongolian Groom that said he was race ready. That gave them the power to tell Aiden O'Brien too bad too sad and Chad Brown "not today".

                      Why would the trainer of Mongolian Groom get more consideration than they did? Why would the vet team take the risk?

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                      • Texarkana asked my question... if the vet scrutiny was so thorough that trainers like Aiden O'Brien and Chad Brown had horses scratched, how on earth did Mongolian Groom not get caught with a possible unsoundness? Or, was there a double standard that the top horses with the top trainers were given a thorough exam multiple times while the less probable winners and trainers were maybe glossed over?

                        The video of Mongolian Groom was just a few days before the Classic. Were there not Vet Team vets watching morning workouts? From the video it appears Mongolian Groom is on the front stretch and there are a few other horses on the track.

                        I would sure like to hear the hand-wavy response from CHRB or one of the Vet Team reps regarding the video showing possible unsoundness and why nothing more appears to have been done. ATM, I'm not so interested in TSG's response, I've seen enough of their, IMO, platitudes.
                        When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

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                        • Has anyone mentioned the fact that they had to pay and additional $200,000 to get Mongolian Groom into the race? I have no idea if this would make everyone a bit more anxious to get it done for the owners, but I tend to believe that it would. Perhaps, they are rethinking that now...
                          When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                          www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                          http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

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                          • Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
                            Texarkana asked my question... if the vet scrutiny was so thorough that trainers like Aiden O'Brien and Chad Brown had horses scratched, how on earth did Mongolian Groom not get caught with a possible unsoundness? Or, was there a double standard that the top horses with the top trainers were given a thorough exam multiple times while the less probable winners and trainers were maybe glossed over?

                            The video of Mongolian Groom was just a few days before the Classic. Were there not Vet Team vets watching morning workouts? From the video it appears Mongolian Groom is on the front stretch and there are a few other horses on the track.

                            I would sure like to hear the hand-wavy response from CHRB or one of the Vet Team reps regarding the video showing possible unsoundness and why nothing more appears to have been done. ATM, I'm not so interested in TSG's response, I've seen enough of their, IMO, platitudes.
                            I don't think there was a double standard. If you look at the list of vet scratches, they were for anyone and everyone.

                            I don't think MG looks "OMG LAME" in that video, but he also doesn't look right by any means. I'm guessing there was probably a logical explanation as to why he was moving the way he was in the video-- maybe that's his natural way of going. Maybe he is a stringhalty horse. Maybe he's prone to tying up. Maybe he really disliked the surface and jogged beautifully over asphalt.

                            Bottom line, I wasn't there; neither were 99% of the people commenting on this situation. Without more information, we don't know exactly what happened. But we can certainly all agree that in retrospect, it's both disturbing and confusing. I hope there is something we can take away from all of this.
                            Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post
                              Has anyone mentioned the fact that they had to pay and additional $200,000 to get Mongolian Groom into the race? I have no idea if this would make everyone a bit more anxious to get it done for the owners, but I tend to believe that it would. Perhaps, they are rethinking that now...
                              Absolutely not. No one cares how much the owners paid to get the horse into the race, especially the vets and management.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
                                Texarkana asked my question... if the vet scrutiny was so thorough that trainers like Aiden O'Brien and Chad Brown had horses scratched, how on earth did Mongolian Groom not get caught with a possible unsoundness? Or, was there a double standard that the top horses with the top trainers were given a thorough exam multiple times while the less probable winners and trainers were maybe glossed over?

                                The video of Mongolian Groom was just a few days before the Classic. Were there not Vet Team vets watching morning workouts? From the video it appears Mongolian Groom is on the front stretch and there are a few other horses on the track.

                                I would sure like to hear the hand-wavy response from CHRB or one of the Vet Team reps regarding the video showing possible unsoundness and why nothing more appears to have been done. ATM, I'm not so interested in TSG's response, I've seen enough of their, IMO, platitudes.
                                You'd have to find out from Stronach and the state what the protocols were for having vets examine the horses. Santa Anita had 9 races on 10/31, 10 races 11/1, 12 races 11/2, and 9 races on 11/3. They also had live racing 10/24, 10/25, 10/26 and 10/27. That is hundreds of horses to examine multiple times for lots of races.

                                WRT Mongolian Groom, at what point in his training was that video taken? What gap did he go on? Was he backing up prior to galloping, or just jogging the wrong way that day? Did he already gallop and he was going back to the gap? Did he have a history of tying up and he already galloped and the rider was trying to keep him moving so he would not tie up and he was fine once he got back to the barn? Obviously no vets saw him jog the wrong way up the stretch that day. Why not? The were probably looking at other horses at that specific moment in time.

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                                • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                                  Absolutely not. No one cares how much the owners paid to get the horse into the race, especially the vets and management.
                                  I doubt the vets even knew who paid and who didn't.

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                                  • Originally posted by Mara View Post

                                    I doubt the vets even knew who paid and who didn't.
                                    When you look back at the number of horses they had to examine multiple times over BC weekend and the prior weekend, they probably did not know who paid for the cup of coffee in their hand.

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                                    • More footage including some from behind


                                      https://www.xbtv.com/video/workout/m...ber-31st-2019/
                                      McDowell Racing Stables

                                      Home Away From Home

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                                      • I wonder what he looked like say 6 months ago. Is that just how this horse moves? He absolutely looks unsound to me in the week leading up to the BC but did he always look unsound and that's just how he went?

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          Connections of Midnight Bisou & McKinzie state they both will be back to race in 2020.
                                          I for one am looking forward to another year of watching Midnight Bisou.

                                          https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...t-in-saudi-cup

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