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Breeder’s Cup 2019

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  • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
    Here is another video of Mongolian Groom which was view by anonymous vets after the incident and they concurrently agree he was unsound in the videos that were taken leading up to the race.

    https://www.xbtv.com/video/workout/m...ber-26th-2019/

    Here is an updated article on Mongolian Groom and the vet work that was done prior to the race. its very interesting
    https://www.paulickreport.com/news/r...-exam-history/

    I realize that no one wants to get on board with me on this, but I think that the trainer probably leaned as hard as he could to get this poor colt into that race- after they spent 200K to supplement. If they walk away- the colt is still alive, but they lose the money. He rolled the dice, and the colt lost.

    There is no way a group of Vets, who should be reasonably educated on lameness, should have missed that. None. So, somebody pushed, or the Vets are stupid. Take your pick.
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

      I realize that no one wants to get on board with me on this, but I think that the trainer probably leaned as hard as he could to get this poor colt into that race- after they spent 200K to supplement. If they walk away- the colt is still alive, but they lose the money. He rolled the dice, and the colt lost.

      There is no way a group of Vets, who should be reasonably educated on lameness, should have missed that. None. So, somebody pushed, or the Vets are stupid. Take your pick.
      its worthy of note that the colts owner is responsible for the illegal smuggling of furs from Mongolia and into Russia. theres plenty of cover up going on in this scenario. and people who are apparently quite skilled at it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

        I realize that no one wants to get on board with me on this, but I think that the trainer probably leaned as hard as he could to get this poor colt into that race- after they spent 200K to supplement. If they walk away- the colt is still alive, but they lose the money. He rolled the dice, and the colt lost.

        There is no way a group of Vets, who should be reasonably educated on lameness, should have missed that. None. So, somebody pushed, or the Vets are stupid. Take your pick.
        Didn't Chad Brown lean pretty hard on the powers that be after the scratch of Thais? Where did that get him?

        https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/236775/vets-scratch-unsound-thais-from-bc-filly-mare-turf


        And do you know who Peter Brant is? You can't get much more 1 %.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brant

        One of the fastest sprinters in the country, Imperial Hint was scratched the week of a $2 million race in which he would have been one of the favorites.

        https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ers-cup-sprint

        Fleeting flew in from Ireland for one of the world's most powerful trainers. She got scratched.

        But those Mongolian guys. They must have special mojo.

        (Yeah I am being sarcastic)

        Comment


        • Zero chance there was any “leaning” involved. More likely is someone just plain screwed up by letting this one fall through the cracks that were supposed to be sealed up and they are trying to figure out who.
          McDowell Racing Stables

          Home Away From Home

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          • Originally posted by Pronzini View Post

            Didn't Chad Brown lean pretty hard on the powers that be after the scratch of Thais? Where did that get him?

            https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/236775/vets-scratch-unsound-thais-from-bc-filly-mare-turf


            And do you know who Peter Brant is? You can't get much more 1 %.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brant

            One of the fastest sprinters in the country, Imperial Hint was scratched the week of a $2 million race in which he would have been one of the favorites.

            https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ers-cup-sprint

            Fleeting flew in from Ireland for one of the world's most powerful trainers. She got scratched.

            But those Mongolian guys. They must have special mojo.

            (Yeah I am being sarcastic)
            And I don't read any "whining" into Aidan O'Brien's statement on Fleeting's being scratched; it sounded to me as though he was well-aware of the protocols in place before he ever loaded anyone on a plane. He didn't expect his horse to not pass the vet team's inspections, obviously, and was disappointed. Expected, but he certainly didn't kick up a fuss.

            Comment


            • Todd Pletcher's take on what happened to Mongolian Groom:

              In this week’s TDN Writers’ Room Podcast, future Hall of Fame trainer Todd Pletcher didn’t mince words when talking about the breakdown of Mongolian Groom (Hightail) in the Breeders’ Cup Classic and the rash of breakdowns that have emboldened politicians and animal rights activists. Calling the current situation a “crisis,” Pletcher implored the racing industry to do whatever it takes to cut down on the number of equine fatalities.

              Here are his comments: “I don’t think there’s any acceptable answer. The reality is we have to do better. We have to do better starting from the birth of these horses. I think a lot of the issues are sort of pointed toward the racetrack, pointed toward the trainers. The more we look at it these situations can begin back literally at the birth of these foals, how they’re prepped and treated and presented at yearling sales and 2-year-old in training sales. We have do better in every single phase. We all know that there’s nothing we can do that is absolutely going to prevent it from happening, but I do think we can dramatically reduce it and every effort has to be made to do that. We’ve made some strides in the right direction. But we can’t back off now. We have to continue to work harder and do better at this. It’s a crisis. In racing, a lot of times, we get through one crisis and then we kind of coast. We can’t let our foot off the pedal. We have to get this thing sorted out and do a lot better than we’re doing now.”
              http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...-to-do-better/
              www.laurienberenson.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                Zero chance there was any “leaning” involved. More likely is someone just plain screwed up by letting this one fall through the cracks that were supposed to be sealed up and they are trying to figure out who.
                My guess is that no vet saw the horse jog with a rider on his back after he galloped? My track vet also thinks it should have been caught, but without knowing the protocols of which vets were doing what thing on what day, it’s hard to assign blame. This Is all new - this is the first year they’ve done this. Obviously there are holes, but you don’t know where the holes are until things go wrong. And possibly they did prevent some catastrophes with the scratches.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
                  Todd Pletcher's take on what happened to Mongolian Groom:



                  http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...-to-do-better/
                  I’m curious how breeders feel about his statements. I ask because it feels a little finger-pointy to me, although I don’t disagree that prevention starts at birth.

                  I have my own very strong opinions on how we could do better, most of which I’ve shared here at one time or another...

                  I think the hardest thing is facilitating change. People don’t like change.
                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pronzini View Post

                    Didn't Chad Brown lean pretty hard on the powers that be after the scratch of Thais? Where did that get him?

                    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/236775/vets-scratch-unsound-thais-from-bc-filly-mare-turf


                    And do you know who Peter Brant is? You can't get much more 1 %.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brant

                    One of the fastest sprinters in the country, Imperial Hint was scratched the week of a $2 million race in which he would have been one of the favorites.

                    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ers-cup-sprint

                    Fleeting flew in from Ireland for one of the world's most powerful trainers. She got scratched.

                    But those Mongolian guys. They must have special mojo.

                    (Yeah I am being sarcastic)
                    Thanks so much! Yes I am
                    aware of these issues generally and the breeders specifically.

                    Ironically , these horses weren’t supplemented. They were the crème de la crème and they were spun. That’s the good news.

                    i’m not asking anyone to agree with me. I’m just giving you my point of view. I tend to follow the money on these kinds of things.
                    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • ASB Stars Would you agree following the money also includes not jeopardizing relationships with powerful Europeans who have literally flown across the world specifically for the race? The BC is dependent on these Euros coming over to make these races the marquee events that they are billed as. While they may not have paid a supplemental fee, risking their business is huge. Yet they still had vet scratches.

                      Also, I believe the bulk of the supplemental fee is added to the purse. I don’t think there is a big profit margin, although I could be wrong.
                      Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                        I’m curious how breeders feel about his statements. I ask because it feels a little finger-pointy to me, although I don’t disagree that prevention starts at birth.

                        I have my own very strong opinions on how we could do better, most of which I’ve shared here at one time or another...

                        I think the hardest thing is facilitating change. People don’t like change.
                        I don't think his finger pointing is a bad thing. The sales have become an end goal all their own and many TB yearlings are currently raised with a view toward maximizing their sales potential, rather than their racing potential.

                        If you bubble wrap a foal nearly from birth, restrict its opportunities to rough-and-tumble with its peers, manage its turnout so it never sees bad weather, overfeed it, swim the heck out of it to build muscle, and use surgery to correct every imperfection, chances are you're not going to raise a racehorse. You will, however, in most cases get yourself a yearling that brings lots of money at a sale.

                        I was talking to a friend in September who buys 10-12 pretty pricey yearlings every year to race. He said he'd realized that the more money he spent on a yearling (higher cost translating to "better" looking, meaning they look more like 2yos than yearlings) the less likely they were to ever make a single start. Well, duh.

                        And yet buyers still want the over-sized, over-muscled, over-fat horses who never had the chance to build strong bone, or run with their buddies, or learn to compete by bouncing around a big field in all kinds of weather. And they're willing to pay a premium for them. And then those premium horses end up with the top trainers. The system is upside down.

                        So yes, I think Todd Pletcher had a point.
                        www.laurienberenson.com

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post
                          ASB Stars Would you agree following the money also includes not jeopardizing relationships with powerful Europeans who have literally flown across the world specifically for the race? The BC is dependent on these Euros coming over to make these races the marquee events that they are billed as. While they may not have paid a supplemental fee, risking their business is huge. Yet they still had vet scratches.

                          Also, I believe the bulk of the supplemental fee is added to the purse. I don’t think there is a big profit margin, although I could be wrong.
                          OK. Just for the sake of discussion what do you think of the records of those horses who were flown across the pond to compete? I ask this as in comparison to Mongolian Groom? Did any of them even need to be supplemented? Or were their records such that they were standing on their own merit and they had gotten in based upon their record?
                          When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                          www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                          http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

                            OK. Just for the sake of discussion what do you think of the records of those horses who were flown across the pond to compete? I ask this as in comparison to Mongolian Groom? Did any of them even need to be supplemented? Or were their records such that they were standing on their own merit and they had gotten in based upon their record?
                            It sounds like there are some major misconceptions here.

                            You don’t supplement because of race record. Horses are nominated to the Breeders Cup races as weanlings by being by BC nominated stallions and paying a fee. If the horse wasn’t nominated as a weanling, you have to pay the MUCH larger fee to supplement them at racing age, which is what happened with Mongolian Groom. He was by a “cheap” stallion that was not nominated at the time.

                            All horses have to pay a massive entry fee to participate in the races: $150,000. Unless, you win one of the “win and you’re in” races, in which case your entry fee is waived and your entry is guaranteed.

                            If a race were to be oversubscribed, there is a point system for acceptance into the race based on graded stakes wins.
                            Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

                              OK. Just for the sake of discussion what do you think of the records of those horses who were flown across the pond to compete? I ask this as in comparison to Mongolian Groom? Did any of them even need to be supplemented? Or were their records such that they were standing on their own merit and they had gotten in based upon their record?
                              Mongolian Groom got into the BC Classic on his own merits by winning a "Win and You're In" G1 race. The reason he had to pay supplemental money was because he had not previously been Breeders Cup nominated--which has nothing to do with his ability as a racehorse.

                              Many, if not most, TBs are nominated as foals by their breeders. MG was not--and if you miss that early window, the price to nominate becomes pretty prohibitive.
                              www.laurienberenson.com

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

                                I don't think his finger pointing is a bad thing. The sales have become an end goal all their own and many TB yearlings are currently raised with a view toward maximizing their sales potential, rather than their racing potential.

                                If you bubble wrap a foal nearly from birth, restrict its opportunities to rough-and-tumble with its peers, manage its turnout so it never sees bad weather, overfeed it, swim the heck out of it to build muscle, and use surgery to correct every imperfection, chances are you're not going to raise a racehorse. You will, however, in most cases get yourself a yearling that brings lots of money at a sale.

                                I was talking to a friend in September who buys 10-12 pretty pricey yearlings every year to race. He said he'd realized that the more money he spent on a yearling (higher cost translating to "better" looking, meaning they look more like 2yos than yearlings) the less likely they were to ever make a single start. Well, duh.

                                And yet buyers still want the over-sized, over-muscled, over-fat horses who never had the chance to build strong bone, or run with their buddies, or learn to compete by bouncing around a big field in all kinds of weather. And they're willing to pay a premium for them. And then those premium horses end up with the top trainers. The system is upside down.

                                So yes, I think Todd Pletcher had a point.
                                I am in full agreement with everything you have said. But for the sake of conversation... does any of this apply to an $11,000 yearling by a $2,500 stallion? I'm surprised he was consigned as a yearling in the first place; he must have been an incredible specimen. Then again, despite a modest pedigree, he did have deep pockets behind him from the start...
                                Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
                                  Many, if not most, TBs are nominated as foals by their breeders. MG was not--and if you miss that early window, the price to nominate becomes pretty prohibitive.
                                  Like my mare. BC nominated and never set foot on a track (no lip tat). But, inexpensive when nominated early, pricey if done later...
                                  When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

                                    OK. Just for the sake of discussion what do you think of the records of those horses who were flown across the pond to compete? I ask this as in comparison to Mongolian Groom? Did any of them even need to be supplemented? Or were their records such that they were standing on their own merit and they had gotten in based upon their record?
                                    Makes no sense. He had to be supplemented because at no point in time prior to that did anyone think he was a Breeders Cup horse. So following the money, how much did it cost to get 30 vets from all over the place to go in on this profitable scheme? It’s ridiculous to think there is any kind of money motive.

                                    Comment


                                    • http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...LBZDI.facebook
                                      McDowell Racing Stables

                                      Home Away From Home

                                      Comment


                                      • Thanks for sharing.

                                        I expected a statement like this. It makes sense; we hold thousands of other horses to this same standard.

                                        But it does give me pause as to whether we should re-evaluated our standard for horses with pre-existing conditions. This is not a new thought for me; it's something I've been mulling over for years. I don't know if anyone remembers, but years ago (probably over a decade ago), some crackpot poster came on here saying he could predict all breakdowns. He had a complicated spreadsheet that basically included dozens upon dozens of different "risk factors." The hilarious part was that all the "risk factors" were part of every day racehorse life; most were unavoidable. None of them could be used to predict a breakdown because they basically encompassed every thoroughbred on the planet. We all laughed at his list and ran him off. But a few of his alleged "risk factors" stuck in the back of my mind. Every now and then, something like this happens and I wonder if they would be worth revisiting.

                                        But I'm just rattling random thoughts here...
                                        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                          I am in full agreement with everything you have said. But for the sake of conversation... does any of this apply to an $11,000 yearling by a $2,500 stallion? I'm surprised he was consigned as a yearling in the first place; he must have been an incredible specimen. Then again, despite a modest pedigree, he did have deep pockets behind him from the start...
                                          I was under the impression that Pletcher was talking about the rash of breakdowns that had happened this year, and not Mongolian Groom specifically. That was what I replied to.
                                          www.laurienberenson.com

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