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NY Times Article on Justify

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    #61
    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

    What needs to be examined is the role the CHRB played in letting a famous trainer skate past rules that the rest of us have to play by.
    Indeed.

    The CHRB hid information, and there was a heck of a lot of impropriety involved in the closed door sessions, changing of rules after the fact, etc.

    Also, though, let's not be naive about substances. Many athletes pass tests by circumvention. Passing tests doesn't mean "you are clean" , and if we were in a court of law, that casual idea would be thrown out immediately because there would be a lot more evidence required, (as has already happened in the case of human athletes who passed tests and were later dqed and/or suspended). .


    Thresholds at 4x acceptable levels doesn't seem "casual" to me, either, and we are dealing with a trainer who has been known in the past to um, experiment with odd substances, so there's that......

    When real investigations take place, details are not so readily cast aside.

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by WinterTriangle View Post

      Thresholds at 4x acceptable levels doesn't seem "casual" to me, either, and we are dealing with a trainer who has been known in the past to um, experiment with odd substances, so there's that......

      When real investigations take place, details are not so readily cast aside.
      Exactly. Horses have to EAT jimson weed in order to have contamination, and can you really see a horse eating enough jimson weed to get that kind of overage when the horse has a massive hay net in front of it? No, the horse drops the unpalatable stuff and eats the good stuff.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

        however, I would argue that a case could be made for the idea that the horse should not have been eligible to compete in the triple crown races.
        That is exactly the crux of it. You have to earn your way in, and he was "cheated" in by the CHRB.

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
          I have not been in Baffert's barn in Cali but have been in his barn when he is at Pimlico and he doesn't even bed on straw here. There are 30!!! bags of shavings in each of his stalls. I know that because I bedded my stalls for weeks with the clean shavings I wheelbarreled out of his stalls after the Preakness.
          Baffert uses straw at Santa Anita- see photo.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

            I have great respect for you
            And that is the point for every hard working honest trainer and team behind our sport....that we do right by them, and that no trainer should be too big to fail because they have "special protections" from a board that is willing to cover for them, change rules after the fact, hide information from others in the business as well as from the public, etc.

            because it makes a mockery of all their efforts,, blood, sweat and tears, hopes and dreams, not to mention just day-to-day energies expended to be part of something they love and believe in .

            also have to give kudos and reward those who are doing it right, day after day. Yes, personal satisfaction and ability to look in mirror at end of day is wonderful, but proper recognition comes in the form of respect and admiration.......and by allowing some of this awful stuff we see lately denigrates the sport in general, which is the opposite of what should be happening to most who are in it! Going after the bad guys in a big way serves to not have the entire sport and everyone in it "disrespected", which is what is happening lately.

            Comment


              #66
              A slightly different perspective on a new article in the BH...

              Leading paragraph...

              The substance a lab found at a prohibited level in Justify after he won the 2018 Santa Anita Derby (G1), scopolamine, has seen plenty of attention from regulators in recent years because while prohibitions are in place because of its potential performance-enhancing effects, positives at a relatively frequently high rate have been linked to contamination—especially in Southern California.
              He (Dr Rick Arthur, CHRB equine medical directory) said because California has had issues with jimson weed contamination, it has a higher threshold than the international standard in place. And even though Justify also was over that threshold, there was substantial evidence pointing to contamination.
              Arthur said there was one other horse who surpassed the scopolamine threshold and a number of other horses who showed some level of the substance in their systems after racing at Santa Anita Park that weekend, April 6-8, 2018. He also noted that when the positive is associated with jimson weed, as opposed to an administration of Buscopan, the lab indicates positives for both scopolamine and atropine, which was the case with Justify and five other horses that weekend. Finally, he noted that the level of scopolamine that showed up in Justify's blood test was much lower than what came back in his urine test, which he said was another factor indicating contamination.
              For me, the jury is still out on contamination vs intentional administration for scopolamine's performance enhancing effects.
              Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth, And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; John Gilliespie Magee, Jr

              Comment


                #67
                Justify was one of 7 horses who tested positive which is why the CHRB took the action it did.

                https://www.latimes.com/sports/story...kentucky-derby

                I'm no fan of Baffert and I do think --but I can't prove--that he gets favors others don't but Drape should have mentioned that in his piece.

                Comment


                  #68
                  And if done properly, a thorough investigation would be brought and a dozen *experts* brought in both from testing and veterinary fields, to comment on Dr. Arthur's *opinions*......

                  Because isn't Dr. Arthur the medical director FOR the CHRB? The very body who has acted with impropriety here? LOL



                  Originally posted by Pronzini View Post
                  Justify was one of 7 horses who tested positive which is why the CHRB took the action it did.
                  I would want to know who those horses were, and what their EXACT levels were. Without knowing this we have no comparison for study.


                  In the cases they mentioned with Hollendorfer, as well as previous examples years ago with Mandella and McAnally, all the horses WERE DQed.

                  I'ts really easy to justify things after the fact. After MTB won the Ky Derby, we were all seeing the reasons he shouldn't have been 50-1. This is the way the human mind works, but drawing snap logical conclusions doesn't tell the whole story.

                  I want to know what level those other 7 horses tested at.
                  Last edited by WinterTriangle; Sep. 12, 2019, 10:05 PM.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by ASB Stars View Post

                    I have great respect for you, and your thoughts and opinions...however, I would argue that a case could be made for the idea that the horse should not have been eligible to compete in the triple crown races.

                    Now, will people still want to breed to an **exceptional** son of a very fine sire who died young? Sure. But some attorneys, or even states attorneys, are going to may hay of this. Really.
                    Technically, if the CHRB had acted at the time, Justify would have been ineligible to run in the KY Derby because without the SA Derby win he did not have enough qualifiying points to get in. To run in the Preakness and the Belmont, however, all he had to do was be entered. Which he was--and that made him eligible to run.

                    When a horse gets a bad test, it's the trainer who is suspended and fined, and the owner who loses the win and the purse money. But the horse itself isn't suspended. So it's only Justify's participation in the Derby that would have been affected. And it's too late to re-run the race. I don't agree that attorneys are going to be making hay with this, but I guess we'll see how it turns out.
                    www.laurienberenson.com

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

                      Technically, if the CHRB had acted at the time, Justify would have been ineligible to run in the KY Derby because without the SA Derby win he did not have enough qualifiying points to get in. To run in the Preakness and the Belmont, however, all he had to do was be entered. Which he was--which made him eligible to run.

                      When a horse gets a bad test, it's the trainer who is suspended and fined, and the owner who loses the win and the purse money. But the horse itself isn't suspended. So it's only Justify's participation in the Derby that would have been affected. And it's too late to re-run the race. I don't agree that attorneys are going to be making hay with this, but I guess we'll see how it turns out.
                      Why didn't the CHRB let the public know, and KY, about a positive test that could jeapardize the entry?

                      Lots of purse money in play, unless you think seven figures is nothing.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                        Why didn't the CHRB let the public know, and KY, about a positive test that could jeapardize the entry?

                        Lots of purse money in play, unless you think seven figures is nothing.
                        That's a question I have also asked several times previously.

                        The reply of mine you quoted was in reference to a post that said Justify should have been ineligible to run in all the Triple Crown races. But that's not the way it works.

                        www.laurienberenson.com

                        Comment


                          #72
                          It takes time to reach a ruling on a disqualification due to a positive drug test. At least several weeks and a hearing in front of the CHRB to present the facts and the trainers statement. At the time of the Derby the split sample was just being sent and was not back yet. Legally, they could not overturn the results until they have a ruling and there is no way it could be done that quickly. He was eligible to run in the Derby on the date the race was run. So, there is no way to legally take away his Derby win. They can go back and argue the facts and decisions regarding the Santa Anita Derby and possibly rule to change that. I think given the additional information, we should not throw anyone under the bus at this time until the facts are out. The CHRB should , however, have been more transparent with their decisions.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            More; https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...ntial-penalty/

                            Comment


                              #74
                              I'm still not buying it. Stewards don't wait a week to inform a trainer of a positive, especially when the horse is the talk of the town leading up to the Derby. Oh yeah, by the way Baffy, Justify had a positive after the Santa Anita Derby. Had they acted in a timely manner, like they ALWAYS do, the split would have come back before the Derby. Who were the other horses involved, and trainers, and why haven't those trainers spoken up and confirmed that they also had positives and spoke to the stewards about their hay supplier etc?

                              An investigation involves some sort of action plan. What exactly did the stewards do during their investigation to reach their conclusion that it was environmental contamination? Where is the documentation? The Santa Anita Derby purse is $1 million. It's not chump change that gets distributed.

                              Comment


                                #75

                                Others may be "satisfied" with press relseases from within the same network of those who are guilty of highly irregular practices, major violations and a coverup here. .

                                A full investigation by independent sources needs to be done, on everyone involved in this,

                                Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong, were stripped of their medals and titles.

                                I think so people have become so desensitized to corruption they are numb to outrage anymore.

                                Well, not me. I will not be part of normalizing this.

                                This needs a full and thorough investigation, and not by people in the racing industry. Looks like there may be a lot of corruption involved. The foxes can no longer be guarding the henhouse and insiders protecting each other so they can carry on business as usual.

                                Sorry for the outburst. I am thoroughly disgusted with this situation and having smoke blown up my petticoat is just even more annoying to add to it. They must think we are idiots.

                                I'd also like the recipe for bob's special sauce. Everyone knows there is one, I suspect jimson weed is one of the ingredients now though. LOL
                                Last edited by WinterTriangle; Sep. 13, 2019, 06:54 AM.

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  If Ruiz brings a lawsuit, ALL evidence will be investigated and disclosed. press releases by people who Baffert trained horses for, will not suffice.

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    [QUOTE=LaurieB;n10476821

                                    When a horse gets a bad test, it's the trainer who is suspended and fined, and the owner who loses the win and the purse money. But the horse itself isn't suspended. So it's only Justify's participation in the Derby that would have been affected. And it's too late to re-run the race. I don't agree that attorneys are going to be making hay with this, but I guess we'll see how it turns out.[/QUOTE]

                                    So, you’re implying that Justify could have gone to the Derby, but without Baffert? That would seem highly unlikely.
                                    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                                    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                                    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by WinterTriangle View Post
                                      If Ruiz brings a lawsuit, ALL evidence will be investigated and disclosed. press releases by people who Baffert trained horses for, will not suffice.
                                      Apparently he is considering it. The winner got $600,000, Bolt got $200,000.

                                      https://www.courier-journal.com/stor...in/2303812001/

                                      I wonder who Drape got the emails and memos from. I imagine that person works in the racing office or for the state, and is fearful of retaliation. I have a good imagination.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by WinterTriangle View Post
                                        I'd also like the recipe for bob's special sauce. Everyone knows there is one, I suspect jimson weed is one of the ingredients now though. LOL
                                        When year in and year out you get your pick of the top horses in the country, you will win more than your "fair" share of the big races. Baffert is good at getting a horse ready for a race. He is not known for bringing along the next generation of good horsemen, like other top trainers do. He got really lucky with Jimmy as his assistant and Dana as his top rider, a lot of his success rests on their shoulders. Baffert is not known for nurturing a lengthy, successful career out of a horse. He can get them right and hold them together for about 6 months.

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          I believe, the horses who also tested positive for the substance were no where near the levels that Justify had in his system. There is a threshold to be considered a "positive", so if your results come back that your horse had some level of the drug in the system, doesn't mean its technically a "positive'. those horses likely ingested through eating bedding or contaminated hay, etc. Jimson weed is a big stalky, nasty plant. Even if it is in straw, the likelihood of a horse ingesting enough stalks of jimson weed to get levels that high is highly, highly unlikely.

                                          Not only does Jimsonweed contain the drug in question but it is an extreme hallucinogen. for humans, every part of the plant contains dangerous levels of alkaloids (including Scopolamine) that can be easily fatal if ingested.

                                          As noted in many photos of Bob's horses in their stalls; he's not using chopped straw, he's using basic long stem straw. Which makes it even more surprising to me that a horse would pick out the stalky stems of the bitter Jimsonweed in the straw and willingly eat it. If the straw was chopped; I could see it being more easily mixed.

                                          The fact that Justify's positive was 4x the limit and when retested produced the same result; just furthers my belief that there is a lot more going on here than what Bob is willing to admit.

                                          Comment

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