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Keeneland Sept

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  • Original Poster

    Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post

    I am curious... you keep mentioning that horses that don't vet well are why some horses aren't selling. Have you looked at the vet reports on file at Keeneland to know some of the more, shall we say, "average" sellers vet issues or you just guessing that a reason buyers aren't buying the individual?

    Yes, I get that some will have a vet issue that will turn off prospective buyers but do you know these horses had issues or you don't see any other reason you wouldn't buy them it must be a vet issue?
    As I noted earlier upthread, I was at the sale in the early stages. I am no longer there. Nor do I have the time, or energy, to look up the repository for every single horse offered. A horse doesn't sell-well for a variety of reasons: vetting (some buyers willing to look past minuscule things while some want a completely clean vetting), not mature enough, not tall enough, Not from a proven dam-line, by a sire who hasn't produced much in his first crops, not physically correct enough, etc

    I think that once you get by the initial books of the best horses on offer for the worlds richest elite, the sale results offer a more indicative view into where the market and industry currently stands. When you get past the never ending money being traded in the first few days, the majority of the industry is composed of the type of horse and people in the later books and a more honest viewpoint of the type of money willing to be spent. The best will still command top dollar but the ones with issues (whatever that may be from the list) will suffer.

    There are plenty of people cutting their losses on stud fees and boarding bills and deciding to sell and there are plenty of people not willing to cut their losses and take home what they planned to sell.



    Comment


    • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

      Its hard to deny that before California Chrome even went to Taylor Made people were wondering if he would be well received because of what he came from. That topic was well discussed long before he started covering mares. I'm just repeating the conversation.

      The offspring from him that had the complete package: looks, size, stature, maturity, clean vetting and most importantly came out of notable mares; have sold very well for their consignors. As I noted in my post. He's had quite a few six figure offerings this year.
      Anything that wasn't mature enough, didn't have a glitzy page and didn't vet clean didn't sell well at all; in fact they tanked; that goes for every sire that had offspring in the sale.

      I think the later books have a lot for buyers to offer at very reasonable prices if you can find one that vets clean. If they're not the most physically imposing at the sale, that can change rapidly down the line. But as with any animal being sold anywhere; those with the big coin are spending it on the most perfect specimen they can find on offer; that doesn't guarantee a turnout on the track.

      I am honestly surprised to see Nyquist so well received. Not a ton on offer from him in the sale but what sold, sold pretty well.

      I think the Exaggerators could be something special. I will be very interested to see how they start to perform in the next 2 years.
      You seem to do a lot of parroting of opinions and terms that you don't understand. Your own opinions seem to be pulled out of the air because they certainly are not based on fact.

      You are surprised that Nyquist was well received? Apparently you know nothing about him and didn't see his yearlings or you wouldn't be surprised.

      You think C.C's get will be turf horses. You still haven't explained why you believe this.

      You believe that by voicing the observation that C.C. doesn't stamp his get, which is obvious to anyone that sees them, Taylor Made has ruined the market for C.C.'s yearlings (even though you didn't know the meaning of the term "stamp" until it was explained to you).

      These are only a few of the bizarre and uninformed opinions that you have expressed.

      Your motivation for continuing to prove how little you know about the subject of TB racing, breeding, conformation, and sales is a mystery to me.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
        As I noted earlier upthread, I was at the sale in the early stages. I am no longer there. Nor do I have the time, or energy, to look up the repository for every single horse offered. A horse doesn't sell-well for a variety of reasons: vetting (some buyers willing to look past minuscule things while some want a completely clean vetting), not mature enough, not tall enough, Not from a proven dam-line, by a sire who hasn't produced much in his first crops, not physically correct enough, etc
        snaffle, you keep presenting yourself as an expert in the TB world, someone whose opinions should be taken as fact. And then you post things which clearly show you have no idea what you're talking about.

        Unless you are an equine vet who is known to Keeneland, you have no access to the repository. It's not a matter of your time or energy. The repository information isn't publicly available to anyone who feels like stopping in to have a look. The info is private and access to it is strictly controlled. You wouldn't even be allowed to step inside the room much less start viewing records.

        Anyone with even a vague idea of how these sales work would be aware of that.



        www.laurienberenson.com

        Comment


        • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

          snaffle, you keep presenting yourself as an expert in the TB world, someone whose opinions should be taken as fact. And then you post things which clearly show you have no idea what you're talking about.

          Unless you are an equine vet who is known to Keeneland, you have no access to the repository. It's not a matter of your time or energy. The repository information isn't publicly available to anyone who feels like stopping in to have a look. The info is private and access to it is strictly controlled. You wouldn't even be allowed to step inside the room much less start viewing records.

          Anyone with even a vague idea of how these sales work would be aware of that.


          This is correct. There is someone up front monitoring access and you need a user name and password to access the computers. Snaffy was NOT at the sale.
          "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

            This is correct. There is someone up front monitoring access and you need a user name and password to access the computers. Snaffy was NOT at the sale.
            And you cannot tell ANYTHING from video. For example: I re-watched the video of the $8.2 million filly several times. In a number of frames her feet looked really wonky and she looked to be a bit crooked up front. (At least this was the case on my monitor). Obviously there was a bit of distortion there....

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

              This is correct. There is someone up front monitoring access and you need a user name and password to access the computers. Snaffy was NOT at the sale.
              If snaffle had been at the sale--and knew what she was looking at--she would know why the Nyquists sold so well, and why the CC's did not. Which would have saved us at least a couple of pages of discussion.
              www.laurienberenson.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mara View Post

                And you cannot tell ANYTHING from video. For example: I re-watched the video of the $8.2 million filly several times. In a number of frames her feet looked really wonky and she looked to be a bit crooked up front. (At least this was the case on my monitor). Obviously there was a bit of distortion there....
                I can get a decent view of the proportions of the horse on my computer. The head, throatlatch, neck, shoulder, back and croup, since they show the horse from different angles. It is possible to see faults or quality there.

                You are right about the legs. Can't see squat. All I can see of the legs is the length of the cannon bones in relation to the forearm and the gaskin. No way to see any deviation in straightness, no good view of pasterns or hooves or hocks. and no way to see the walk.

                So fun to watch though.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

                  If snaffle had been at the sale--and knew what she was looking at--she would know why the Nyquists sold so well, and why the CC's did not. Which would have saved us at least a couple of pages of discussion.
                  I wasn't at the sale and I could see why Nyquist did well, and CC not so much, and I had no view of the legs or the movement.

                  I think our snaffle is not well versed in conformation, no matter how much she enjoys parroting the terms.

                  As usual, there were some horses in the later books that I thought were really nice and they sold for very little. Not having been there, there is no way for me to know why.
                  Last edited by skydy; Sep. 20, 2019, 09:28 PM. Reason: To add.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

                    If snaffle had been at the sale--and knew what she was looking at--she would know why the Nyquists sold so well, and why the CC's did not. Which would have saved us at least a couple of pages of discussion.
                    But... but.... but.... a CC was a Session 11 sales topper (at a whopping $85,000) out of Dirty Rush mare.

                    Maybe would have saved on pages of discussion but possibly enhanced education and/or entertainment?

                    Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                    Comment


                    • Statistics as of today:

                      Nyquist- 24 head sold. Median $230,000. Average $251,375. Top Seller $550,000.

                      Frosted- 44 head sold. Median $207,500. Average $227,841. Top Seller $600,000.

                      Runhappy- 39 head sold. Median $210,000. Average $242,872. Top Seller $700,000.

                      C. Chrome- 27 head sold. Median $65,000. Average $99,544. Top Seller $325,000.

                      Exaggerator- 40 head sold. Median $51,000. Average $85,300. Top Seller $400,000.

                      Comment


                      • Sky...stop letting the facts get in the way of this saga. Do buyers really pass on yearlings because they aren’t tall enough? I know sale yearlings tend towards being precocious but would they ignore one solely based on height or even maturity on a late foal ??? Honest question.

                        Im not there, no reason to even be there. But glad to see Frosted doing well. Those wiser then I seem to like him well enough.
                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                        Comment


                        • Some trainers won't buy May foals. I wish I could remember the trainers name who said he doesn't buy them "because they'll always be at a disadvantage".

                          I think the height preference was mentioned by a consignor, and he was talking about the preference of inexperienced owners. I don't know how trainers feel about it, I would think they wouldn't care unless the horse was very tiny or really huge.
                          LaurieB might know.

                          Comment


                          • Thanks for the strapping description! I vaguely remember seeing things similar at the barn way back when as a beginner but had zero clue what they were for.

                            Also thanks for the play by play analysis. I’ve learned a lot. And as always thanks to Snaffy for providing entertainment. I may not know much about racing but even I can tell she has no clue about a horse even when it’s supposedly in front of her.

                            I’m just a fan and have owned and ridden many an OTTB including my current princess.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by findeight View Post
                              Sky...stop letting the facts get in the way of this saga. Do buyers really pass on yearlings because they aren’t tall enough? I know sale yearlings tend towards being precocious but would they ignore one solely based on height or even maturity on a late foal ??? Honest question.

                              Im not there, no reason to even be there. But glad to see Frosted doing well. Those wiser then I seem to like him well enough.
                              Yes. Generally speaking, small yearlings are at a disadvantage at the sale even if they are younger than the others. Buyers want big and impressive. Even someone knows nothing about horses can still see what size they are. (Bear in mind that men tend to do the majority of the buying--and to them, as we all know, size matters. )

                              There are exceptions to this rule because there are a number of small, very successful stallions whose offspring usually aren't large. War Front, Speightstown, Distorted Humor, and More Than Ready fit that mold.

                              One last thing, there's a difference between a yearling who's little because he has short legs relative to the size of his body, and one who is small but still beautifully balanced. The former will usually bring a reduced price, while the latter will have an easier time overcoming his small stature.

                              www.laurienberenson.com

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by skydy View Post
                                Some trainers won't buy May foals. I wish I could remember the trainers name who said he doesn't buy them "because they'll always be at a disadvantage".

                                I think the height preference was mentioned by a consignor, and he was talking about the preference of inexperienced owners. I don't know how trainers feel about it, I would think they wouldn't care unless the horse was very tiny or really huge.
                                LaurieB might know.
                                Skydy, I don't happen to know any trainers who won't buy May foals. I do know some who purposely seek them out because they think they can get them at a bargain price. And of course, they do catch up by the time they're ready to race. (Northern Dancer, who was a May 23rd foal, won the KY Derby before his actual third birthday. A more recent example is Mucho Macho Man who won the BC Classic and earned $5,000,000. He was graded stakes placed three times at 2, won the G2 Risen Star in spring of his 3yo year and ran 3rd in the KY Derby--despite having been born on June 15th.)

                                I do know that pinhookers avoid most May foals--but they are looking to put the yearlings right to work. There is also a very quick turnaround before they sell the horse again, usually only 6 months or so.
                                www.laurienberenson.com

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

                                  Yes. Generally speaking, small yearlings are at a disadvantage at the sale even if they are younger than the others. Buyers want big and impressive. Even someone knows nothing about horses can still see what size they are. (Bear in mind that men tend to do the majority of the buying--and to them, as we all know, size matters. )

                                  There are exceptions to this rule because there are a number of small, very successful stallions whose offspring usually aren't large. War Front, Speightstown, Distorted Humor, and More Than Ready fit that mold.

                                  One last thing, there's a difference between a yearling who's little because he has short legs relative to the size of his body, and one who is small but still beautifully balanced. The former will usually bring a reduced price, while the latter will have an easier time overcoming his small stature.
                                  I've always liked More Than Ready. I didn't realize that he was small. He looks to have a big body in his Stallion photo, and not a lot of length of leg, but there is no way to judge his height and they don't provide the information.

                                  How small is he?

                                  Comment


                                  • Skydy, he's around 15.2, which is small for a TB stallion.

                                    Elliott Walden once pointed out that the three most successful stallions at WinStar were also the three smallest: More Than Ready, Speightstown, and Distorted Humor.
                                    www.laurienberenson.com

                                    Comment


                                    • Yes, that is small. When you said small,I expected him to be 15.3 at least.

                                      Though I had a TB gelding that was barely 15 hands and a mare that was 15.2 they were not race bred. They were not bred for anything that I could tell, I just bought from a farmers field.

                                      The hunter stallions used by the TB folks that taught me back in the day, while not huge, were all 16h or a little bit over. Not huge like the Warmbloods and TB hunter stallions of today.

                                      Giants Causeway always seemed to be on the smaller side in his photos. Was he?
                                      Last edited by skydy; Sep. 21, 2019, 10:02 PM. Reason: To add

                                      Comment


                                      • For me, just as anecdotal observation, I'd personally avoid any that were too big. Seems like they come into their own late and sometimes just can't get out of their own way.

                                        I would take a smaller, well balanced horse any day over larger.

                                        Yes, those stallion conformation photos are tricky... the horse looks nice but there is nothing included in the photo to gauge size
                                        Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
                                          For me, just as anecdotal observation, I'd personally avoid any that were too big. Seems like they come into their own late and sometimes just can't get out of their own way.

                                          I would take a smaller, well balanced horse any day over larger.

                                          Yes, those stallion conformation photos are tricky... the horse looks nice but there is nothing included in the photo to gauge size
                                          Most of the farm websites list the stallions height, but obviously not all of them.

                                          I would think the middle of the road height would be ideal for racing, with stride being more important than height.

                                          There are examples successful racehorses short and tall, so breeding, movement and heart seem to be the deciding factors.

                                          Comment

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