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For those that breed... interesting article just posted today's BH

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  • For those that breed... interesting article just posted today's BH

    The Jockey Club is considering a phased implementation of limiting stallion book size of 140 starting in 2021.

    Seems to me to be a good idea but would be interested in thoughts from those that are actually much closer to the breeding industry than I am

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ting-book-size

  • halo
    replied
    Originally posted by EventerAJ View Post

    It will ebb and flow. Remember when there were dozens of Storm Cat sons at stud? And grandsons? And mares? Most of them fell by the wayside and only the best ones remained (GC, Stormy Atlantic, etc). Unless all those Tapit sons hit it big (highly unlikely) the Tapit influence will moderate in the next decade, just like Storm Cat did. I think it's a net positive that all those Tapit sons could be limited to 140 instead of 200+.
    Except that those Storm Cat sons werent breeding 200 mare books. Dont forget the new rules will allow new sires to breed unlimited books, and you can be sure those stud farms will insure those new sires will get the biggest books they can. I still think their argument of genetic diversity is a total joke. Its all about money.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaurieB
    replied
    Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

    oh just plagiarize it and send it in...
    Halo is very capable of speaking for herself.

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
    halo please write those two posts in a letter to TDN. They are looking for comments on this issue and yours address the problem with the limiting stallions books better than most that they have printed.
    oh just plagiarize it and send it in...

    Leave a comment:


  • EventerAJ
    replied
    Originally posted by halo View Post
    So just to check real numbers, I looked up 2018 statistics. Tapit and his sons bred 1872 mares, of only 3 bred over 140. In 2019 grade 1 winner Tapwrit was added to the mix (dont have 2019 numbers yet), and still racing are graded stakes winners New York Central, Synchrony, Marconi, Souper Tapit, Tacitus, Rotation, and Kingly, all of which should find a spot on a breeding farm. Hows that genetic diversity working out?
    It will ebb and flow. Remember when there were dozens of Storm Cat sons at stud? And grandsons? And mares? Most of them fell by the wayside and only the best ones remained (GC, Stormy Atlantic, etc). Unless all those Tapit sons hit it big (highly unlikely) the Tapit influence will moderate in the next decade, just like Storm Cat did. I think it's a net positive that all those Tapit sons could be limited to 140 instead of 200+.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaurieB
    replied
    halo please write those two posts in a letter to TDN. They are looking for comments on this issue and yours address the problem with the limiting stallions books better than most that they have printed.

    Leave a comment:


  • halo
    replied
    So just to check real numbers, I looked up 2018 statistics. Tapit and his sons bred 1872 mares, of only 3 bred over 140. In 2019 grade 1 winner Tapwrit was added to the mix (dont have 2019 numbers yet), and still racing are graded stakes winners New York Central, Synchrony, Marconi, Souper Tapit, Tacitus, Rotation, and Kingly, all of which should find a spot on a breeding farm. Hows that genetic diversity working out?

    Leave a comment:


  • halo
    replied
    Id like to revisit the idea that limiting stallions books is about genetic diversity. When you are talking about foal crops of 20,000 (and growing less all the time) how is limiting books going to help, when a stallion like Tapit will likely have 40 (or more) sons at stud next year, many breeding big books of mares, not to mention the fact that every single Tapit mare with ovaries will be bred. Its not inconceivable that there could be 3500 Tapit foals and grandkids in a single year. How is that helping diversity. Whats next with the JC, only allowing 10 sons of a stallion to be able to stand at stud? And if they are all about diversity, why are they limiting the very stallions that are helping genetic diversity, the Uncle Mos, the Into Mischiefs, the Candy Rides, the Ghostzappers. I think their definition of "genetic diversity" and mine is very different. Maybe "monetary diversity" is what they actually mean.

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

    What you've experienced in the TB world is no worse than what we've experienced in the SB world. Honestly you guys probably even have it a bit better.
    I'm sure we have it better, mostly because of way more deep, deep pocketed owners, a global industry and a much much better purse structure.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaurieB
    replied
    Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

    Are you aware of the substantial decline in TB foal crops over the past 20 years? Maybe 30 years? It’s hardly a thriving industry.
    Make that 10 years. The foal crop dropped 40% between 2008 and 2018.

    Leave a comment:


  • Standard Bread
    replied
    Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

    Are you aware of the substantial decline in TB foal crops over the past 20 years? Maybe 30 years? It’s hardly a thriving industry.
    What you've experienced in the TB world is no worse than what we've experienced in the SB world. Honestly you guys probably even have it a bit better.

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

    Oh no, I do believe we had a misunderstanding, and about the word luxury of all things! See, when I was talking about luxuries, I was thinking about the hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of beautiful and accomplished stallions to chose from, and how so many of them delightfully advertised on glittering websites. And I was thinking of the mare base that seems almost limitlessly deep, both at home and abroad. And I was also thinking about the freedom a breeder has in selecting pairings, especially if they have a very deep pocketbook. Of course, it's not easy to put the right mare to the right stallion, especially when there are so many variables from so much choice in play. I value the efforts of breeders, and I admire the especial care taken by small scale producers. I think the world would be a better place if more people could take that attitude of stewardship and apply it to their own lives. And I also stand in awe of the people who have the knowledge to hit home runs year after year after year. It's such a different world, and there's a part of me that's deeply jealous of people who work with a breed where the death of one key figure won't put the survival of the entire breed at risk.

    I'm very sorry that you made the assumption that I see the work of breeders as little more than a pastime for the one percent. I can absolutely understand how you came to that conclusion. I am disheartened though that you did not reach out to check in with me before making such a baseless accusation. But I understand. You have skin in the game, and it can be very hard to separate one's own emotions from a rational response when an outsider seemingly attacks something that you hold dear. To my own credit I struggled with that here too. But I'm sure you can understand how the implication that a hobbyist breeder is less than a professional breeder is just as offensive as the implication that the work of a professional breeder is baseless money-grabbing. You're a smart person, and much of what you have posted across COTH is demonstrative of your comprehensive knowledge of horsemanship, but sometimes I think you're a bit too quick on that reply button, and it instigates needless hostilities and sets posters against you for bad reasons.

    Would you like to know where I, an outsider, stand on this issue? Would that help to make any amends? Like I said, I only popped into this thread to help clarify a bit of terminology I've seen thrown around in a similar context. I've been avoiding commenting on the issue at hand because I understand I'm a bit out of my depth here. But if it would help, I will share my amateur opinion. And I even suspect we're more in line with each other's thoughts than not.
    Are you aware of the substantial decline in TB foal crops over the past 20 years? Maybe 30 years? It’s hardly a thriving industry.

    Leave a comment:


  • Standard Bread
    replied
    Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

    Well you sure do win the Most Offended Poster award for the day. I'm sure the breeders on this board (I am not a breeder) are not looking at their work as a luxury, and have some concerns about making enough money to keep their programs afloat. Apologies (not) if this is so offensive.
    Oh no, I do believe we had a misunderstanding, and about the word luxury of all things! See, when I was talking about luxuries, I was thinking about the hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of beautiful and accomplished stallions to chose from, and how so many of them delightfully advertised on glittering websites. And I was thinking of the mare base that seems almost limitlessly deep, both at home and abroad. And I was also thinking about the freedom a breeder has in selecting pairings, especially if they have a very deep pocketbook. Of course, it's not easy to put the right mare to the right stallion, especially when there are so many variables from so much choice in play. I value the efforts of breeders, and I admire the especial care taken by small scale producers. I think the world would be a better place if more people could take that attitude of stewardship and apply it to their own lives. And I also stand in awe of the people who have the knowledge to hit home runs year after year after year. It's such a different world, and there's a part of me that's deeply jealous of people who work with a breed where the death of one key figure won't put the survival of the entire breed at risk.

    I'm very sorry that you made the assumption that I see the work of breeders as little more than a pastime for the one percent. I can absolutely understand how you came to that conclusion. I am disheartened though that you did not reach out to check in with me before making such a baseless accusation. But I understand. You have skin in the game, and it can be very hard to separate one's own emotions from a rational response when an outsider seemingly attacks something that you hold dear. To my own credit I struggled with that here too. But I'm sure you can understand how the implication that a hobbyist breeder is less than a professional breeder is just as offensive as the implication that the work of a professional breeder is baseless money-grabbing. You're a smart person, and much of what you have posted across COTH is demonstrative of your comprehensive knowledge of horsemanship, but sometimes I think you're a bit too quick on that reply button, and it instigates needless hostilities and sets posters against you for bad reasons.

    Would you like to know where I, an outsider, stand on this issue? Would that help to make any amends? Like I said, I only popped into this thread to help clarify a bit of terminology I've seen thrown around in a similar context. I've been avoiding commenting on the issue at hand because I understand I'm a bit out of my depth here. But if it would help, I will share my amateur opinion. And I even suspect we're more in line with each other's thoughts than not.
    Last edited by Standard Bread; Sep. 18, 2019, 10:14 PM. Reason: a word

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

    The individual who works to save an endangered language from extinction often feels overrun by the people promoting the prestige language, who in turn look at efforts to conserve the dying languge -- and the heritage and culture behind it -- as futile, pyrrhic, and provincial. It is not so different if you replace language with horses, and as someone who is a heritage learner of a threatened, often maligned language, I would caution you to reflect on how you treat people who work for goals different than your own.

    Your business is thoroughbreds, as is the business of many other people, and I respect that when it is your business you need to make money. To that end, I have deliberately avoided making comments about about the effects of this proposal on the TB industry. As my username suggests, my family was involved with SBs, but even then, we have been out of the business long enough that I still try to avoid making grand and sweeping claims about the harness racing industry. I acknowledge that I do not have the industry knowledge to make comments directly on the topic at hand.

    However, I will not stand for the subtle denigration of men and women who have made it their life's work to preserve and promote breeds that are on the cusp of extinction. "Just a hobby" ignores decades of passion, lifetimes of knowledge, and generations of hard work. Their efforts are not less valuable because there's only three or four zeros in that potential sale price, not five, six, or seven. To reduce a breed to a dollar sign -- yes, even thoroughbreds -- strips away centuries of heritage that can be mobilized to promote the breed to new generations of stewards.

    And really, if all a horse is to you is a means to make money, you're in the wrong line of work. ROI on a standardbred is so much better than a thoroughbred.
    Well you sure do win the Most Offended Poster award for the day. I'm sure the breeders on this board (I am not a breeder) are not looking at their work as a luxury, and have some concerns about making enough money to keep their programs afloat. Apologies (not) if this is so offensive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Standard Bread
    replied
    Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

    Although most TB breeders need to make money, and are not doing this in large numbers as a hobby.
    The individual who works to save an endangered language from extinction often feels overrun by the people promoting the prestige language, who in turn look at efforts to conserve the dying languge -- and the heritage and culture behind it -- as futile, pyrrhic, and provincial. It is not so different if you replace language with horses, and as someone who is a heritage learner of a threatened, often maligned language, I would caution you to reflect on how you treat people who work for goals different than your own.

    Your business is thoroughbreds, as is the business of many other people, and I respect that when it is your business you need to make money. To that end, I have deliberately avoided making comments about about the effects of this proposal on the TB industry. As my username suggests, my family was involved with SBs, but even then, we have been out of the business long enough that I still try to avoid making grand and sweeping claims about the harness racing industry. I acknowledge that I do not have the industry knowledge to make comments directly on the topic at hand.

    However, I will not stand for the subtle denigration of men and women who have made it their life's work to preserve and promote breeds that are on the cusp of extinction. "Just a hobby" ignores decades of passion, lifetimes of knowledge, and generations of hard work. Their efforts are not less valuable because there's only three or four zeros in that potential sale price, not five, six, or seven. To reduce a breed to a dollar sign -- yes, even thoroughbreds -- strips away centuries of heritage that can be mobilized to promote the breed to new generations of stewards.

    And really, if all a horse is to you is a means to make money, you're in the wrong line of work. ROI on a standardbred is so much better than a thoroughbred.

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post
    Laurierace Yeah, when you have such a large population of breeding mares you definitely have luxuries that breed preservationists do not.
    Although most TB breeders need to make money, and are not doing this in large numbers as a hobby.

    Leave a comment:


  • Standard Bread
    replied
    Laurierace Yeah, when you have such a large population of breeding mares you definitely have luxuries that breed preservationists do not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Laurierace
    replied
    Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

    I’m loosely involved with a few rare breed preservation groups (and when I say rare, I’m talking less than 100 mares worldwide in some instances), and their closed book “outcrosses” are pairings that ensure maximum genetic diversity. I believe that was the intended definition here.
    Thank you for the explanation. Hopefully in this instance they will put more effort into planning the matings then just figuring out which stallion is less related to the mare.

    Leave a comment:


  • Standard Bread
    replied
    Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
    How do you define an outcross in a closed book?
    I’m loosely involved with a few rare breed preservation groups (and when I say rare, I’m talking less than 100 mares worldwide in some instances), and their closed book “outcrosses” are pairings that ensure maximum genetic diversity. I believe that was the intended definition here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    No worries, there will be plenty more opportunities here on COTH!

    Leave a comment:

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