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For those that breed... interesting article just posted today's BH

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  • #41
    Originally posted by EventerAJ View Post

    Not so ridiculous. One FedEx driver can deliver semen for 50 mares. But you'll see 10 van drivers parked at Ashford at 8am, another 12 at Winstar, 10 at Spendthrift, 8 at Claiborne, etc. Some of those are farm employees hauling their own mares, but a large number of them are Brookledge and Sallee. There *is* an entire industry built on mare care. Having a huge number of them in one place has improved standard of care and veterinary advancement.

    You can definitely argue that's a dumb reason to perpetuate LC, but there is no doubt it has a huge economic impact on KY.
    Not wanting to beat a dead horse here, but Brook Ledge and Sallee can also deliver semen. Im sure they would be cheaper, and far more flexible than Fed Ex. Would lower their costs dramatically and still give a decent income. And yes, theres an entire industry built on mare care. No matter how they are bred, they still have to be boarded. They will still be in Kentucky, where do you think those mares will go?

    How many people have you known who have had mares booked in KY, and got pushed back 5, 6, 7 days and didnt get bred. How is that helping anyone? With AI, when mares need to get bred, they get bred.

    I have a friend who managed an Arabian farm using the top stallions in the business. They used to use shipped semen, and they stopped because their results were so poor. They ended up shipping their mares out, but they still used AI, just had the semen shipped cross town instead of 1000 miles. Efficient, safe, and a booming mare boarding business.

    Ive just never thought that the AI decision by the Jockey Club was about the health and safety of the horse, and steamlining the business model. As I dont believe this 140 cap on stallions is about the future of the Thoroughbred. All it will help is the top percentage of owners and stallions, the rich will get richer, and the rest? I guess we'll see, but Im not optimistic.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #42
      An interesting article in the BH about inbreedng about a 2011 study showing an increase in inbreeding during a 45 year period with a sharp rise during the last 10 years of the study which coincided with a rise in the number of stallions with books of 100 mares or more...

      Is it good that TBs are inbred? Should more outcrosses be encouraged? If limiting inbreeding is a goal by TJC, how else to manage it other than limiting books?
      When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

      Comment


      • #43
        How do you define an outcross in a closed book?
        McDowell Racing Stables

        Home Away From Home

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
          Is it good that TBs are inbred? Should more outcrosses be encouraged? If limiting inbreeding is a goal by TJC, how else to manage it other than limiting books?
          Bear in mind who runs the JC. I doubt it's a coincidence that the organization suddenly became concerned about inbreeding after farms owned by upstarts like B. Wayne Hughes and Coolmore began ruling the breeding sheds and the sire lists.


          www.laurienberenson.com

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #45
            Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
            How do you define an outcross in a closed book?
            Perhaps limiting the number of times a horse appears in a 5 or 7 generation pedigree? Or limiting the number of times a stallion appears in a 5 or 7 generation pedigree?

            My questions and experience, limited as they are, are based more on dog breeding vs TB breeding. Dog breeds are, for the most part, closed books (until someone "invents" a new breed) so they face the same challenges with respect to having limited or no options going outside the breed.

            I assume (having no clue) that I could breed my TJC mare to a TB stallion across the pond and her offspring would be accepted into TJC? That might be, for me, enough of an outcross depending on the stallion lines.

            What would be, for you, an acceptable definition of 'outcross' for TBs?
            When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post


              I assume (having no clue) that I could breed my TJC mare to a TB stallion across the pond and her offspring would be accepted into TJC? That might be, for me, enough of an outcross depending on the stallion lines.

              What would be, for you, an acceptable definition of 'outcross' for TBs?
              Yes, the foal would be registerable. However, it may not be the "outcross" you think it is. TB bloodlines are shared worldwide. In fact, you'll find more Northern Dancer overseas than you will here. Regardless, those Euro stallions are more successful on turf and thus are less desirable here in American dirt racing.
              A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.
              ? Albert Einstein

              ~AJ~

              Comment


              • #47
                This has been an interesting discussion! My own take is that as long as we aren't going to use AI with TBs, and one mare gets at least one cover (instead of dividing collected semen between more than one mare) that it's better for the health of the stallions to have limited books. Farms that I respect already have these limits in place. The fact that first year and second year sires who are totally unproven get 200 mares is ludicrous.

                So for the health of the stallions and the breed I'm happy to see discussion of limits. I'm a breed-to-race, small scale breeder who will never send a mare to KY. So my opinion is worth approximately nothing!

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by JJ'sLuckyTrain View Post
                  The fact that first year and second year sires who are totally unproven get 200 mares is ludicrous.
                  Not if you are running a business, it's not ludicrous.
                  "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    Originally posted by JJ'sLuckyTrain View Post
                    The fact that first year and second year sires who are totally unproven get 200 mares is ludicrous.
                    Any more ludicrous than a hot-hot-hot stallion (Into Mischief) who's 2020 book is already full at $175,000 S&N?
                    When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post

                      Any more ludicrous than a hot-hot-hot stallion (Into Mischief) who's 2020 book is already full at $175,000 S&N?
                      I don't know what's ludicrous about that. Into Mischief is about as proven as a stallion can be. His offspring run well and they sell well. He moves his mares up. So it makes sense that breeders really want to breed to him. At 175k, he's not the most expensive stallion in Kentucky and his book fills early. The year we bred to him, we signed the contract in July. I'm sure many people did the same this year.
                      www.laurienberenson.com

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        I'm thinking I didn't word this properly so ATM, nothing further to avoid additional inserting of foot into mouth...
                        When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          No worries, there will be plenty more opportunities here on COTH!
                          "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                            How do you define an outcross in a closed book?
                            I’m loosely involved with a few rare breed preservation groups (and when I say rare, I’m talking less than 100 mares worldwide in some instances), and their closed book “outcrosses” are pairings that ensure maximum genetic diversity. I believe that was the intended definition here.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

                              I’m loosely involved with a few rare breed preservation groups (and when I say rare, I’m talking less than 100 mares worldwide in some instances), and their closed book “outcrosses” are pairings that ensure maximum genetic diversity. I believe that was the intended definition here.
                              Thank you for the explanation. Hopefully in this instance they will put more effort into planning the matings then just figuring out which stallion is less related to the mare.
                              McDowell Racing Stables

                              Home Away From Home

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Laurierace Yeah, when you have such a large population of breeding mares you definitely have luxuries that breed preservationists do not.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post
                                  Laurierace Yeah, when you have such a large population of breeding mares you definitely have luxuries that breed preservationists do not.
                                  Although most TB breeders need to make money, and are not doing this in large numbers as a hobby.
                                  "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                                    Although most TB breeders need to make money, and are not doing this in large numbers as a hobby.
                                    The individual who works to save an endangered language from extinction often feels overrun by the people promoting the prestige language, who in turn look at efforts to conserve the dying languge -- and the heritage and culture behind it -- as futile, pyrrhic, and provincial. It is not so different if you replace language with horses, and as someone who is a heritage learner of a threatened, often maligned language, I would caution you to reflect on how you treat people who work for goals different than your own.

                                    Your business is thoroughbreds, as is the business of many other people, and I respect that when it is your business you need to make money. To that end, I have deliberately avoided making comments about about the effects of this proposal on the TB industry. As my username suggests, my family was involved with SBs, but even then, we have been out of the business long enough that I still try to avoid making grand and sweeping claims about the harness racing industry. I acknowledge that I do not have the industry knowledge to make comments directly on the topic at hand.

                                    However, I will not stand for the subtle denigration of men and women who have made it their life's work to preserve and promote breeds that are on the cusp of extinction. "Just a hobby" ignores decades of passion, lifetimes of knowledge, and generations of hard work. Their efforts are not less valuable because there's only three or four zeros in that potential sale price, not five, six, or seven. To reduce a breed to a dollar sign -- yes, even thoroughbreds -- strips away centuries of heritage that can be mobilized to promote the breed to new generations of stewards.

                                    And really, if all a horse is to you is a means to make money, you're in the wrong line of work. ROI on a standardbred is so much better than a thoroughbred.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

                                      The individual who works to save an endangered language from extinction often feels overrun by the people promoting the prestige language, who in turn look at efforts to conserve the dying languge -- and the heritage and culture behind it -- as futile, pyrrhic, and provincial. It is not so different if you replace language with horses, and as someone who is a heritage learner of a threatened, often maligned language, I would caution you to reflect on how you treat people who work for goals different than your own.

                                      Your business is thoroughbreds, as is the business of many other people, and I respect that when it is your business you need to make money. To that end, I have deliberately avoided making comments about about the effects of this proposal on the TB industry. As my username suggests, my family was involved with SBs, but even then, we have been out of the business long enough that I still try to avoid making grand and sweeping claims about the harness racing industry. I acknowledge that I do not have the industry knowledge to make comments directly on the topic at hand.

                                      However, I will not stand for the subtle denigration of men and women who have made it their life's work to preserve and promote breeds that are on the cusp of extinction. "Just a hobby" ignores decades of passion, lifetimes of knowledge, and generations of hard work. Their efforts are not less valuable because there's only three or four zeros in that potential sale price, not five, six, or seven. To reduce a breed to a dollar sign -- yes, even thoroughbreds -- strips away centuries of heritage that can be mobilized to promote the breed to new generations of stewards.

                                      And really, if all a horse is to you is a means to make money, you're in the wrong line of work. ROI on a standardbred is so much better than a thoroughbred.
                                      Well you sure do win the Most Offended Poster award for the day. I'm sure the breeders on this board (I am not a breeder) are not looking at their work as a luxury, and have some concerns about making enough money to keep their programs afloat. Apologies (not) if this is so offensive.
                                      "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                                        Well you sure do win the Most Offended Poster award for the day. I'm sure the breeders on this board (I am not a breeder) are not looking at their work as a luxury, and have some concerns about making enough money to keep their programs afloat. Apologies (not) if this is so offensive.
                                        Oh no, I do believe we had a misunderstanding, and about the word luxury of all things! See, when I was talking about luxuries, I was thinking about the hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of beautiful and accomplished stallions to chose from, and how so many of them delightfully advertised on glittering websites. And I was thinking of the mare base that seems almost limitlessly deep, both at home and abroad. And I was also thinking about the freedom a breeder has in selecting pairings, especially if they have a very deep pocketbook. Of course, it's not easy to put the right mare to the right stallion, especially when there are so many variables from so much choice in play. I value the efforts of breeders, and I admire the especial care taken by small scale producers. I think the world would be a better place if more people could take that attitude of stewardship and apply it to their own lives. And I also stand in awe of the people who have the knowledge to hit home runs year after year after year. It's such a different world, and there's a part of me that's deeply jealous of people who work with a breed where the death of one key figure won't put the survival of the entire breed at risk.

                                        I'm very sorry that you made the assumption that I see the work of breeders as little more than a pastime for the one percent. I can absolutely understand how you came to that conclusion. I am disheartened though that you did not reach out to check in with me before making such a baseless accusation. But I understand. You have skin in the game, and it can be very hard to separate one's own emotions from a rational response when an outsider seemingly attacks something that you hold dear. To my own credit I struggled with that here too. But I'm sure you can understand how the implication that a hobbyist breeder is less than a professional breeder is just as offensive as the implication that the work of a professional breeder is baseless money-grabbing. You're a smart person, and much of what you have posted across COTH is demonstrative of your comprehensive knowledge of horsemanship, but sometimes I think you're a bit too quick on that reply button, and it instigates needless hostilities and sets posters against you for bad reasons.

                                        Would you like to know where I, an outsider, stand on this issue? Would that help to make any amends? Like I said, I only popped into this thread to help clarify a bit of terminology I've seen thrown around in a similar context. I've been avoiding commenting on the issue at hand because I understand I'm a bit out of my depth here. But if it would help, I will share my amateur opinion. And I even suspect we're more in line with each other's thoughts than not.
                                        Last edited by Standard Bread; Sep. 18, 2019, 10:14 PM. Reason: a word

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Standard Bread View Post

                                          Oh no, I do believe we had a misunderstanding, and about the word luxury of all things! See, when I was talking about luxuries, I was thinking about the hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of beautiful and accomplished stallions to chose from, and how so many of them delightfully advertised on glittering websites. And I was thinking of the mare base that seems almost limitlessly deep, both at home and abroad. And I was also thinking about the freedom a breeder has in selecting pairings, especially if they have a very deep pocketbook. Of course, it's not easy to put the right mare to the right stallion, especially when there are so many variables from so much choice in play. I value the efforts of breeders, and I admire the especial care taken by small scale producers. I think the world would be a better place if more people could take that attitude of stewardship and apply it to their own lives. And I also stand in awe of the people who have the knowledge to hit home runs year after year after year. It's such a different world, and there's a part of me that's deeply jealous of people who work with a breed where the death of one key figure won't put the survival of the entire breed at risk.

                                          I'm very sorry that you made the assumption that I see the work of breeders as little more than a pastime for the one percent. I can absolutely understand how you came to that conclusion. I am disheartened though that you did not reach out to check in with me before making such a baseless accusation. But I understand. You have skin in the game, and it can be very hard to separate one's own emotions from a rational response when an outsider seemingly attacks something that you hold dear. To my own credit I struggled with that here too. But I'm sure you can understand how the implication that a hobbyist breeder is less than a professional breeder is just as offensive as the implication that the work of a professional breeder is baseless money-grabbing. You're a smart person, and much of what you have posted across COTH is demonstrative of your comprehensive knowledge of horsemanship, but sometimes I think you're a bit too quick on that reply button, and it instigates needless hostilities and sets posters against you for bad reasons.

                                          Would you like to know where I, an outsider, stand on this issue? Would that help to make any amends? Like I said, I only popped into this thread to help clarify a bit of terminology I've seen thrown around in a similar context. I've been avoiding commenting on the issue at hand because I understand I'm a bit out of my depth here. But if it would help, I will share my amateur opinion. And I even suspect we're more in line with each other's thoughts than not.
                                          Are you aware of the substantial decline in TB foal crops over the past 20 years? Maybe 30 years? It’s hardly a thriving industry.
                                          "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                          Comment

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