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For those that breed... interesting article just posted today's BH

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  • #21
    I want to know, how this would impact selection for which mares get accepted into the stallion's book -- stud managers would have to be much more discerning about who is paired, I assume..

    Which then means as everyone pointed out, it'll bump a lot of mares down to a lower tier stallion, wouldn't it?

    Which is not always a good thing, IMHO.

    We've gotten some good horses from some "wait, really?" pairings.. Does anyone think this is a potential issue?

    What about the incentive to have the stallion stand in a different hemisphere vs just shuttling for the season? I'm not a breeder, but I imagine if I had a stallion in demand that had a mandatory breeding limit, that I might consider that stallion traveling/shuttling versus staying at home..

    I'm not really worried about genetic diversity now, the TB has never been particularly diverse, and the same goes for most breeds of domesticated horses -- but I imagine limiting the studbook of top stallions (or any stallion) would then limit the diversity of the mares sent to that stallion, which then would impact the diversity years down the line. Especially if "top level/best tier" mares are consistently paired with "best tier" stallions, over and over (which I imagine would be the case in the matter of a limit).
    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by beowulf View Post
      We've gotten some good horses from some "wait, really?" pairings.. Does anyone think this is a potential issue?
      I would agree that yes, there have been some "good" horses from some "really?" matings... CC comes to mind.

      But carrying that on, how many of these "really?" offspring themselves produce offspring that are close/same/better than themselves?

      I don't breed but if I did own a nice broodmare, I'd be considering a breeding where a) the offspring would perform (hopefully ) on the track and also b) perform well in the shed when the race career is over unless I'm really breeding for the racing career only and not much consideration to a post race career.

      When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post

        I would agree that yes, there have been some "good" horses from some "really?" matings... CC comes to mind.

        But carrying that on, how many of these "really?" offspring themselves produce offspring that are close/same/better than themselves?

        I don't breed but if I did own a nice broodmare, I'd be considering a breeding where a) the offspring would perform (hopefully ) on the track and also b) perform well in the shed when the race career is over unless I'm really breeding for the racing career only and not much consideration to a post race career.
        When I think of some older (and so, proven) "wait, really?" pairings, I think of Sharpen Up or Atan. You would have (IMHO) never predicted a horse of his caliber, from either Atan or Rochetta... and here we are..
        AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
          I don't breed but if I did own a nice broodmare, I'd be considering a breeding where a) the offspring would perform (hopefully ) on the track and also b) perform well in the shed when the race career is over unless I'm really breeding for the racing career only and not much consideration to a post race career.
          Isn't that the same thing everyone breeds for?

          People here often complain that TB breeders are "breeding for the sales"--but what does that really mean? The reason the top sales sires are so popular is because they produce top runners. Tapit, Into Mischief, and Quality Road aren't just the sales darlings, they are also the top three producing sires in the U.S. based on racing results. If their racing results were to disappear, so would the high prices paid for their offspring.


          www.laurienberenson.com

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          • #25
            I breed 2-3 mares every year, and have often gone to stallions with really large books...tho I prefer not to. Breeding mares is a very personal thing, people do a lot of research and want the very best matches for their mares they can get. If I cant get my mares to a stallion that I want to breed to, I just wont breed. Theres no point. If Im going to spend the money to get that mare shipped, boarded, bred, kept in foal, foaled out, and get that foal to the races, you can be damned sure that its going to be something I really want to do. I dont know anyone breeding who will breed to a stallion just because he's available. Its just too expensive and time consuming. I have to be really excited to see that foal born.

            I also think it will turn the top 10-20% of stallions to being controlled by the "good old boys" network in KY. Its going to be tough to get into a lot of these horses. I can see submitting your mare, by the time you've been told "sorry, he's full", and you have to go shopping again, the popular horses, the ones you want to use, will be booked.

            Genetic diversity? Thats hilarious. How many Tapit sons are at stud?

            They are also letting first year horses breed for several seasons before imposing limits. Like how does that make sense? Shouldnt a stallion have to prove that he's a good sire first? Isnt it a little backwards limiting the horses that have proven themselves, over horses who havent even had a foal on the ground?

            I can certainly see where people who have good mares that breed strictly to sell will be left twisting in the wind. The market is extremely exacting and unkind. You have to breed to the right horses to have a chance to make any money, and all mares owners know who those horses are. Theres not that many of them. Theres way more good mares than there will be slots with those stallions. No one will want to breed their mares down; why would you? Not to mention the fact that stud fees will rise, maybe a lot.

            I dont know the answer, but it will probably get me out of breeding in a year. Its tough enough without having to battle the numbers game.

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            • Original Poster

              #26
              LaurieB I would absolute think that people breed for both on track and shed "performance"

              What is interesting to me is that of the top stallions you mentioned, Tapit isn't on t he over 140 list, Quality Road is barely over the 140 mark at 154. Into Mischief is the over 140 list leader at 245

              It was interesting to me to see the list that EventerAJ compiled and see who is on it and who isn't. Some of the big names aren't on it at all while 'big names' definitely show up and sometimes lesser known stallions are on that large book list.

              Me? (easy for me to say ) if I had a strong stallion prospect (say AP or Justify), I might want to limit the book with a strong selection of mares to see what he throws before having him cover the entire planet his first season.

              Will be interesting to see what the JC chooses to do. I thought interesting idea but not sure I was ready to jump on the train and after reading these comments, even less ready to jump on that train.


              When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
                LaurieB I would absolute think that people breed for both on track and shed "performance"

                What is interesting to me is that of the top stallions you mentioned, Tapit isn't on t he over 140 list, Quality Road is barely over the 140 mark at 154. Into Mischief is the over 140 list leader at 245

                It was interesting to me to see the list that EventerAJ compiled and see who is on it and who isn't. Some of the big names aren't on it at all while 'big names' definitely show up and sometimes lesser known stallions are on that large book list.

                Me? (easy for me to say ) if I had a strong stallion prospect (say AP or Justify), I might want to limit the book with a strong selection of mares to see what he throws before having him cover the entire planet his first season.

                Will be interesting to see what the JC chooses to do. I thought interesting idea but not sure I was ready to jump on the train and after reading these comments, even less ready to jump on that train.

                The reason for the disparity in the number of mares covered by the top sires is that not all farms (and/or all stallions) have unlimited books. Many, if not most horses have a set book size and when that number is reached the book is closed.

                Some of those "lesser known" stallions near the top of the list are first year horses. Farms bred large number initially so they can get their investment back before the offspring have a chance to run and show what they can (or cannot) do. Also--and even more importantly--success on the sire lists is a numbers game. The more offspring a stallion has on the track, the higher on the first and second year sire lists he is likely to end up.

                I will also be very interested to see what the JC does. Unfortunately I suspect their decision will mean the end of my small breeding program.
                www.laurienberenson.com

                Comment


                • #28
                  By the way, the complete list of Mares Bred can be found here: http://jockeyclub.com/default.asp?se...RMB&letter=all

                  Those are the 2018 figures. The JC won't release the 2019 list until next month.
                  www.laurienberenson.com

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
                    Unfortunately I suspect their decision will mean the end of my small breeding program.
                    This, as Halo also noted, would be an outcome that would, IMO, not be doing the overall TB breeding industry any good

                    When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      EventerAJ - that list is not global? The JC only tracks horses in the US, Canada and PR I think. What about the shuttle stallions?
                      "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Why do you think it would end your breeding program LaurieB? You have lovely mares. Do you just think it will be too competitive to get into the book you want? I could see this actually increasing the number of stallions standing at stud which I think is what they are aiming for. They don't want 25% of the foal crop to be by the same 4 stallions.
                        McDowell Racing Stables

                        Home Away From Home

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                        • #32
                          I wonder if another reason would be if the numbers were capped, the reasons not to permit AI would disappear.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
                            I wonder if another reason would be if the numbers were capped, the reasons not to permit AI would disappear.
                            Definitely not. There is still the entire industry that is supported by live cover in terms of van drivers and boarding and foaling etc. The restriction on AI literally fuels a big chunk of the economy in places like KY and FL and NY
                            McDowell Racing Stables

                            Home Away From Home

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Laurierace View Post

                              Definitely not. There is still the entire industry that is supported by live cover in terms of van drivers and boarding and foaling etc. The restriction on AI literally fuels a big chunk of the economy in places like KY and FL and NY
                              I have never bought that argument. Semen still needs to be shipped, mares still need to be boarded and foaled. Theres a large percentage of mares owners that keep their mares in KY that dont own farms...or want to. Whether the mares are bred live cover or AI, they still have to be boarded, foals, yearlings, all need to be boarded...and shipped. And whether mares go to the stallions, or the semen goes to the mares, theres still shipping involved...of something. Its ridiculous to think anything would change if the semen was driven to the mare rather than the mare shipped to the stallion. And the safety factor for humans and horses goes up exponentially.

                              You hit a sore subject for me.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
                                EventerAJ - that list is not global? The JC only tracks horses in the US, Canada and PR I think. What about the shuttle stallions?
                                Maybe I misunderstood, but I think the US jockey club is only concerned with North American (northern hemisphere) mares bred. I don't think they would have any control of what stallions breed in Southern hemisphere.
                                A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.
                                ? Albert Einstein

                                ~AJ~

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by halo View Post

                                  I have never bought that argument. Semen still needs to be shipped, mares still need to be boarded and foaled. Theres a large percentage of mares owners that keep their mares in KY that dont own farms...or want to. Whether the mares are bred live cover or AI, they still have to be boarded, foals, yearlings, all need to be boarded...and shipped. And whether mares go to the stallions, or the semen goes to the mares, theres still shipping involved...of something. Its ridiculous to think anything would change if the semen was driven to the mare rather than the mare shipped to the stallion. And the safety factor for humans and horses goes up exponentially.

                                  You hit a sore subject for me.
                                  Not so ridiculous. One FedEx driver can deliver semen for 50 mares. But you'll see 10 van drivers parked at Ashford at 8am, another 12 at Winstar, 10 at Spendthrift, 8 at Claiborne, etc. Some of those are farm employees hauling their own mares, but a large number of them are Brookledge and Sallee. There *is* an entire industry built on mare care. Having a huge number of them in one place has improved standard of care and veterinary advancement.

                                  You can definitely argue that's a dumb reason to perpetuate LC, but there is no doubt it has a huge economic impact on KY.
                                  Last edited by EventerAJ; Sep. 10, 2019, 10:35 AM.
                                  A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.
                                  ? Albert Einstein

                                  ~AJ~

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    The JC answers more questions, reaffirming that a stallion will only be able to be bred to 140 mares--regardless of how many of them get in foal. I guess that means that a difficult to settle mare will automatically be struck from most books.

                                    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...e-the-proposal

                                    Spendthrift and Coolmore must feel as though they are in the crosshairs.
                                    www.laurienberenson.com

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #38
                                      LaurieB interesting article, particularly the clarification that it is mares covered, not mares that foaled. Yes, could see leading to some dicey decisions stallions could cover > 140 mares and end up with more than 140 foals

                                      But yes, while a 'ding' against the big players like Spendthrift and Coolmore, a potentially even bigger ding on the smaller breeders

                                      IMO, any time 'rules' are changed to affect an outcome directed at 'bigger' players, the small players usually end up being impacted more. I've seen this same thing in many different sports disciplines. Change the rules to make things more "fair" for the big guys and the little guys often suffer a more significant % of the impact. From the sounds of it, it would take some good arguments to get TJC to back off this notion
                                      When you start to observe, you become more effective... your movements soften, you see more, you are more available to becoming a team member. Be an Observer first, a Handler second.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I think the main issue I have against it is that they say it will "force" breeders to use lesser stallions. Im not sure its a good idea to be "forcing" breeders to do anything. The big pocket breeders will have no problem adjusting to higher stud fees and restricted books. The impact will be on the middle market breeders, who are the majority of mare owners, and who are probably already walking a fine line between paying their bills or not. I think it will make 200 mare books the norm for the young stallions just starting to breed. So when those Tapit and Into Mischief young stallions go to stud, breeding huge books, how is that helping diversify? In the stallion book, theres 33 Tapit sons at stud. Theres at least 7 or 8 quality sons racing now that will be entering stud that will get big books. Id be way more concerned with that than with Uncle Mo breeding an unlimited book. He's the horse you need for diversity.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by EventerAJ View Post

                                          Maybe I misunderstood, but I think the US jockey club is only concerned with North American (northern hemisphere) mares bred. I don't think they would have any control of what stallions breed in Southern hemisphere.
                                          The US Jockey Club I think has jurisdiction in the US, Canada and PR. I meant does the mares bred count listed by the JC also account for shuttle stallions - they can get a report from other countries I imagine. Some stallions are very popular abroad and breed a fair number of mares there. But it seems that it only accounts for mares bred in the US, Canada and PR, and not any other countries.
                                          "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

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