Stallion Spotlight

Sandro Hit Standa Eylers

Real Estate Spotlight

6571 Vermont Hill Rd. Wales NY. Krystal Dern-53
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums’ policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by skydy View Post
    How is it managed where no Lasix is allowed?
    The easiest method (from the trainer's point of view, not the horse's) is to withhold water for 12-18 hours before a race.
    www.laurienberenson.com

    Comment


    • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

      The easiest method (from the trainer's point of view, not the horse's) is to withhold water for 12-18 hours before a race.
      Is that what is done to U.S. horses running races in countries where lasix is not allowed, or is that common practice in the UK ?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by skydy View Post

        I am interested in the results of the drug tests of horses in training. The results for ones that died were were not commented on by Santa Anita. I'm sure the necropsys tested for medication, but why would Santa Anita comment on drugs present that are allowed?

        I am curious about the use of drugs that are allowed in horses in training and if they were present in the horses that died.
        Allowed by whom? Most organizations -racing, showing, etc- do not extend their jurisdiction to out-of-competition activities. It's your horse, do what you want. Racing has many rules and regulations wrt the possession of prescription medications, needles, syringes, etc and if you are a licensee and are on the track grounds, you and your vehicle and your barn can be thoroughly searched for any reason at any time. The track can, and has on many occasions, installed security cameras in barns and monitored activities that way.

        Out-of-competition testing is starting to gain ground in racing, although with horses being trained on farms and at private training centers it's not an easy thing to monitor.

        There are a multitude of reasons to give a horse "drugs" while in training. If the horse gets hit in the eye with a clod of dirt during the race, he might get a prescription eye ointment. If he gets a laceration he might get antibiotics. He usually gets tranquilized to get clipped in the winter. They will get bute post race. Some of them are on adequan, pentosan and/or legends.

        Any significant presence of drugs would be commented upon in the necroscopy report, and they've reviewed all the cases for any commonalities and that is the problem - they are not finding anything.
        "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
          Lasix strikes me as tricky... Just due to physiology, the amount of air a horse moves while galloping, and the force/speed of it entering/exciting (plus the mechanics of the diaphragm), means that pretty much all horses will bleed at some point or on some level.

          So it has a legit role in supporting a horse's health. But then it also has been used to mask other performance enhancing drugs. But then again on the flip side of THAT, it can effect muscle function and cause issues with nerve function. Those last two things I would think could potentially cause the kinds of very low level damage that eventually adds up to a big problem.

          But I don't know how you make sure it's being used in the most ethical way, or measure if it's causing potential health issues. A blanket ban ends up being easier, much to the detriment of horses who could really benefit from it.

          Honestly I see things like joint injections and that sort of thing as a much bigger issue, but can see where lasix can be misused, or cause problems, too. As with anything, it's not black and white... :/
          How would Lasix contribute to a maiden breaking down? I did not look up the race record of the most recent fatality, but she probably has not run in a high number of races.

          Again, the necroscopies are not finding any abnormalities with the muscles, or degeneration of the joint, etc. What kind of "low level damage" are you talking about that is scientifically supported? They are looking for a smoking gun, and not finding any commonalities.
          "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

          Comment


          • Lasix sheds water out of the body. This is why the discussion has been had about allowing horses to gulp water after a race instead of having small drinks when permitted. They are essentially running dehydrated.

            In humans it reduces fluid in the body for diseases like heart disease and kidney problems.

            Its been a long standing controversy in racing for years now. Used to prevent horses from bleeding in excessive exercise. Lasix is banned in the majority of countries except the US as a race-day medication. In 2014 a country-wide Lasix ban was supported by Todd Pletcher, Kieran McLaughlin, and Richard Mandella as well as officials involved with Breeders Cup. Mclaughlin was once a staunch supporter of Lasix but took the time and energy into doing his own research in his own barn to see if Lasix was actually needed and his results were surprising.

            Officials representing horsemen groups have been saying for years now that "the majority of horses bleed and Lasix is the safest drug to keep them from bleeding." Rick Violette is one of those trainers in support of it

            Horses given Lasix on race day pass 10-15 liters of urine between the point the drug is given and the point in which the horse is taken to the track and are not permitted to drink during that time. Horses pass this amount of Urine as an average daily amount. Due to this excessive urinating, by post-time they can be as much as 10-20lbs lighter. This is why Lasix can be viewed as a performance enhancing drug in a race.

            The other issue is the concern that Lasix can mask other performance enhancing drugs. When a horse is under extreme diuretics; the amount of fluid they pass is so great that it has been proven that it can mask other drugs the horse may have been given If the horse was to undergo a urine test at that point. this is why the 250mg dosage came about; to prevent the masking of other drugs. But since that came about, the approve dosage has been increased to 500mg.

            Veterinarians have long cautioned that they do not see any evidence that Lasix causes greater risk of disease but they have cautioned the long term side effects that can arise from regular, long term use of Lasix.

            There is also the argument that Lasix is weakening the breed, and perhaps it is. When Lasix came about; the average number of starts per horse per year was around 12. Since then, it has decreased to about 6/year. There is science studies that show that EIPH is an inherited trait. And when we mask bleeding in racehorses in the US; we never see how severe it may be in some horses and because the level in which it affects the horse is never noted, the horse goes to the breeding shed with little care or interest in it.

            There is no scientific evidence that states horses are in pain because of bleeding, there isn't enough nerves in that area of the lungs to initiate a response and veterinarians have stated that when a horse bleeds from the nostril at a low level, they notice the fluid there like humans would notice mucous in their airway. Its more of a nuisance.

            I am in full support of using Lasix on known severe bleeders who need it. I am not in support of broadly using it across the board as an end-all with no investigation or knowledge into whether or not the horse being administered it even has a bleeding problem that's severe enough to warrant using it. Here in American we use it on just about every horse that starts which I think is very much the wrong thing to do.


            Comment


            • Originally posted by skydy View Post

              Is that what is done to U.S. horses running races in countries where lasix is not allowed, or is that common practice in the UK ?
              Before my time, but I understand that is what used to happen in the US. It was called "drawing down" I believe.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post



                Out-of-competition testing is starting to gain ground in racing, although with horses being trained on farms and at private training centers it's not an easy thing to monitor.

                .
                And that is the European model.

                Does anyone know if every horse running every day in the UK is tested on race day?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by skydy View Post

                  Is that what is done to U.S. horses running races in countries where lasix is not allowed, or is that common practice in the UK ?
                  U.S. horses that need Lasix don't tend to run in countries where it is banned. (Why go all that way to put your horse's health at risk?) That is one of the methods used in Europe and the U.K. It's a myth that only U.S. horses bleed. Trainers in other countries just have other ways of "coping" with the problem.
                  www.laurienberenson.com

                  Comment


                  • There was a news station at the track yesterday interviewing Ritvo when the filly went down. Whatever you do, avoid those videos at all costs, its not taping of the breakdown itself, but the aftermath. She broke both front legs. Sickening.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

                      Veterinarians have long cautioned that they do not see any evidence that Lasix causes greater risk of disease but they have cautioned the long term side effects that can arise from regular, long term use of Lasix.

                      There is also the argument that Lasix is weakening the breed, and perhaps it is. When Lasix came about; the average number of starts per horse per year was around 12. Since then, it has decreased to about 6/year.

                      Well, if horses are only running, on average, 6 times a year then we don't have to worry about regular, long term use. People who use Lasix use it every day. And again, you are making wild assumptions. At least you did a little research and got some numbers right.

                      "The list of potential reasons for the decline is long, and it's difficult to isolate one possible cause from another. Also, different factors might be more prominent at different racing levels.

                      At the highest class levels, increasing commercial demand is fueling a desire to protect top horses and retire them early. And, massive purses and acclaim for a few top races might have horsemen skipping a race or two in favor of getting everything just right for the sport's biggest events.

                      In delivering those optimum efforts, horsemen are relying on analytics available today that weren't around in the late 1970s. Many of these models suggest more rest is needed after a horse delivers a top effort.

                      At all levels of racing, suspected reasons for the reduction in starts include trainers opting for fewer races in an effort to maintain an attractive win percentage, breeding Thoroughbreds with an emphasis on speed to the detriment of durability, the widespread use of Salix (Lasix) requiring horses more down time to recover between starts, new medication rules that have necessitated more rest for horses, and the reduction in races in recent years providing fewer opportunities for a horse that is ready to run."

                      https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...downward-trend

                      So what we see is that possibly horsemen have been LISTENING and are trying to better manage their horses by giving them more time to recover from a race.

                      Why don't you just bite the bullet and actually get involved in racing in some way other than online so you can show us all how it is done right?
                      "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                      Comment


                      • Horses are definitely managed differently than they used to be. Besides all of those factors cited in the Bloodhorse article, there is another one that I almost never see identified--the rise of the bounce theory. There are a lot of sheets players among trainers and some have let that theory dictate how they manage horses.

                        Years ago, I was in a barn that sent a horse down to Southern California to one of the nationally known trainers for a race at Santa Anita. The horse had just had a winning race at Golden Gate and bigtime trainer was balking at running the horse back in two weeks.

                        "He'll bounce"

                        To which my old school trainer replied "Yeah he'll bounce right into the winner's circle."

                        He did.

                        Comment


                        • [QUOTE=Palm Beach;n10355164]

                          Well, if horses are only running, on average, 6 times a year then we don't have to worry about regular, long term use. People who use Lasix use it every day. And again, you are making wild assumptions. At least you did a little research and got some numbers right.[QUOTE]

                          my entire point of my post, Palm Beach, was that the effects of long term, regular Lasix use is never taken into consideration by the racing community. They have used it broadly, regardless of horse or horse's known conditions, to never have a bleeding problem and perhaps more. A horse's anatomy under high exertion is the reason for bleeding. It is unavoidable and how it affects a horse depends on genetics and their anatomy.

                          It is wrong to say that all horses bleed, because the don't. It is also wrong to say all horses need Lasix in order to run; because they don't. Other countries and proper management have proven that. So did RunHappy. I personally believe that the use of Lasix in America is far beyond therapeutic or just for the purpose of bleeding. If a horse can shed 10-20lbs in 4 hours via urinating; they may have the upper hand in a race (The effect Lasix has on a horse and how much urine they produce and expel should be viewed on a horse-by-horse basis)

                          Lasix does its job and it does its job well. But I don't agree with where the industry has gone in administering it to every horse regardless of medical condition at 500mg doses. This is where the industry went horribly wrong.

                          Comment


                          • It is not wrong to say that every horse bleeds because they do. Maybe not every race, maybe not very badly and certainly not visibly without a scope, but they do. They weren’t designed to go this fast for this far, they were designed to outrun a predator flat out for a couple hundred yards or so. Lasix is a PR issue not a horse issue in my opinion and I just don’t think PR has a place in horsemanship. Right now with the testing we have we are closer to the hay, oats and water everyone pines about than ever before although most people would never feed actual oats. The countries that do not allow lasix get by without it via means that are much crueler than a shot of lasix every month or two will ever be.
                            McDowell Racing Stables

                            Home Away From Home

                            Comment


                            • Just something to note in general _ Omeprazole in humans - FDA warns that it can cause bone density loss leading to fractures . Assuming that trainers have their horses on Ulcer meds - and the Santa Anita Track has something wrong with the footing - could be something to note. It's something to note for anyone who has their horses on ulcer meds long term.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

                                my entire point of my post, Palm Beach, was that the effects of long term, regular Lasix use is never taken into consideration by the racing community.
                                That's because there is no long term regular Lasix use in the racing community. IT IS ONLY USED FOR RACING. Every once in a while you have a bad bleeder that needs to work on Lasix but the rest of them only get it for races.
                                "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                Comment


                                • Stronach is making all the trainers in MD turn in a list of vet treatment when they make an entry and will scratch a horse if it's not in by race time.
                                  "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by dog&horsemom View Post
                                    Just something to note in general _ Omeprazole in humans - FDA warns that it can cause bone density loss leading to fractures . Assuming that trainers have their horses on Ulcer meds - and the Santa Anita Track has something wrong with the footing - could be something to note. It's something to note for anyone who has their horses on ulcer meds long term.
                                    Bone density loss would show up in a necroscopy.
                                    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                    Comment


                                    • I’m sure this topic will come up at the CHRB meeting next week. Legally, can Stronach restrict/prohibit Lasix use on race day when such a right is permitted by the state/CHRB? In other words, can Stronach take away a “right” granted by a government authority? I don’t think the Stronach entity can claim it is a “private individual” as it has an intimate relationship with the state, what with licensing, gambling, etc.? My legal days are long behind me so maybe someone can chime in on this, please.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by paint hunter View Post
                                        I’m sure this topic will come up at the CHRB meeting next week. Legally, can Stronach restrict/prohibit Lasix use on race day when such a right is permitted by the state/CHRB? In other words, can Stronach take away a “right” granted by a government authority? I don’t think the Stronach entity can claim it is a “private individual” as it has an intimate relationship with the state, what with licensing, gambling, etc.? My legal days are long behind me so maybe someone can chime in on this, please.
                                        No, they cannot. It's one of the things that's being hashed out now. Here's where things stand currently: https://www.paulickreport.com/news/r...t-santa-anita/
                                        www.laurienberenson.com

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Pronzini View Post
                                          Horses are definitely managed differently than they used to be. Besides all of those factors cited in the Bloodhorse article, there is another one that I almost never see identified--the rise of the bounce theory. There are a lot of sheets players among trainers and some have let that theory dictate how they manage horses.

                                          Years ago, I was in a barn that sent a horse down to Southern California to one of the nationally known trainers for a race at Santa Anita. The horse had just had a winning race at Golden Gate and bigtime trainer was balking at running the horse back in two weeks.

                                          "He'll bounce"

                                          To which my old school trainer replied "Yeah he'll bounce right into the winner's circle."

                                          He did.
                                          It's football bounce, not a basketball bounce!
                                          "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X