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The Triple Crown Races 2019

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  • Originally posted by Jonskin View Post
    Was kind of hoping the KHRC would levy a fine or at least a reprimand to Flavien Prat for blatantly lying about "getting interfered with" in post-race interviews.
    Who says Prat was blatantly lying?

    His horse was interfered with when everyone up front got knocked around like dominoes. Just because Country House didn't get the worst of it doesn't mean that he didn't suffer any ill effects. You don't have to fall down to be "interfered with".
    www.laurienberenson.com

    Comment


    • Originally posted by dressagetraks View Post
      Question about suspensions. I know that each racing state has their own governing body and there is no national authority for TB racing. If you are suspended in Kentucky, can you just go race in New York instead? Or do the states agree to honor each other's decisions?
      Some racing jurisdictions have reciprocal agreements, others don't. It seems like sometimes suspensions are enforced in other states and sometimes they aren't. Clear, huh? That's just one of the reasons why racing needs a national governing body. As an example, right now Patrick Biancone is under a lifetime ban in Kentucky but training and racing quite happily in California.
      www.laurienberenson.com

      Comment


      • Suit has been filed

        http://www.espn.com/horse-racing/sto...s-sue-derby-dq
        Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jonskin View Post
          Was kind of hoping the KHRC would levy a fine or at least a reprimand to Flavien Prat for blatantly lying about "getting interfered with" in post-race interviews.
          valid point. should be action taken about this.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by LaurieB View Post

            Who says Prat was blatantly lying?

            His horse was interfered with when everyone up front got knocked around like dominoes. Just because Country House didn't get the worst of it doesn't mean that he didn't suffer any ill effects. You don't have to fall down to be "interfered with".
            country house was never touched by the domino effect that occurred. in later sequences of the photographs, country house is actually leaning on the horse next to him at the top of the stretch. When the situation happened, Country house was still at Bodeexpress's flank. A few strides late, country house was clear to Bodeexpress's outside by several feet of room. The slight bump from Bodeexpress against Country house was caused by the initial move of war of will off the rail.

            You can see that in this slow mo video within the first 50 seconds
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j68rqh8UuQo

            When Maximum Security made the move, right, off of the rail, country house was pretty much clear of bodeexpress at this point, with Bode's head at both Country House's flank and Toddy's flank. See Slow MO video above at time stamp 1:11. Toddy then gets squeezed by War of Will and basically eliminates all running room for BodeExpress. Time stamp 1:23. You will see bodeexpress go under extreme hold by his jockey and fade rapidly. Country house is still 1 horse width to the outside of Toddy at time stamp 1:23 and there is absolutely n indication of any kind of movement from Prat aboard Country house.

            At 1:35 on this video you will see toddy slightly bump the rear end of country house. Would I call that interference to Cuuntry House? NO. I would call interference to Toddy who got plowed over by War of Will as a result of both he and MS coming off the rail. The bump to country house at the top of the lane is just racing. The bump all the way around. It never affected his forward movement or safety as the Country House was never forced from his lane
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPjYOiN_QSQ

            Comment


            • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

              valid point. should be action taken about this.
              except that he didn't lie about what happened.
              www.laurienberenson.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

                country house was never touched by the domino effect that occurred. in later sequences of the photographs, country house is actually leaning on the horse next to him at the top of the stretch. When the situation happened, Country house was still at Bodeexpress's flank. A few strides late, country house was clear to Bodeexpress's outside by several feet of room. The slight bump from Bodeexpress against Country house was caused by the initial move of war of will off the rail.

                You can see that in this slow mo video within the first 50 seconds
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j68rqh8UuQo

                When Maximum Security made the move, right, off of the rail, country house was pretty much clear of bodeexpress at this point, with Bode's head at both Country House's flank and Toddy's flank. See Slow MO video above at time stamp 1:11. Toddy then gets squeezed by War of Will and basically eliminates all running room for BodeExpress. Time stamp 1:23. You will see bodeexpress go under extreme hold by his jockey and fade rapidly. Country house is still 1 horse width to the outside of Toddy at time stamp 1:23 and there is absolutely n indication of any kind of movement from Prat aboard Country house.

                At 1:35 on this video you will see toddy slightly bump the rear end of country house. Would I call that interference to Cuuntry House? NO. I would call interference to Toddy who got plowed over by War of Will as a result of both he and MS coming off the rail. The bump to country house at the top of the lane is just racing. The bump all the way around. It never affected his forward movement or safety as the Country House was never forced from his lane
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPjYOiN_QSQ
                snaffle, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Like I said earlier, you don't have to fall down to be interfered with.

                Once I was showing in a hunter class in a ring at the top of a steep incline. As I approached the first fence in an outside line, a golf cart came racing up the hill toward the ring. It looked like it was coming straight at us. My horse saw the golf cart out of the corner of her eye and spooked sideways, so we missed the fence. Was I interfered with? Yes. Did anyone touch me? No. Did we get plowed over by the golf cart? No, it stopped just outside the ring. But my horse was still interfered with.

                In the end, it doesn't matter what either you or I saw on the video. It only matters what the stewards saw.

                www.laurienberenson.com

                Comment


                • Originally posted by AffirmedHope View Post
                  "unconstitutional"? Wow, didn't know the Constitution protected horse racing. I'll have to get a copy of the complaint...
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  Today I will be happier than a bird with a french fry.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by charismaryllis View Post

                    "unconstitutional"? Wow, didn't know the Constitution protected horse racing. I'll have to get a copy of the complaint...
                    I know the KHRC is a state agency, it's not a private non-for profit like USEF. So there might be some merit to the West's argument about due process. Here is an article with their statement:

                    https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...qualification/
                    Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

                    Comment


                    • Oh my. This lawsuit will be expensive for the KHRC. Unless it is thrown out on matters of jurisdiction straight away.

                      Is there any precedent for this? Has anyone ever sued the KHRC (or any racing authority) over their horse being set back for interference?

                      I don't know if the result of the race is fair, but it seems the stewards followed the rules. A court would have to change the KHRC rules would they not? Are the Inquiry and interference rules uniform across all of the different racing entities?

                      The Wests are not stupid, they must have taken time to discuss the legal aspects with their no doubt highly qualified attorney and are certainly capable of keeping their ball rolling in court for a long time.

                      What a disappointing end to this years Derby.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by AffirmedHope View Post

                        I know the KHRC is a state agency, it's not a private non-for profit like USEF. So there might be some merit to the West's argument about due process. Here is an article with their statement:

                        https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...qualification/
                        Oh, some of the comments on that article are pure gold...
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        Today I will be happier than a bird with a french fry.

                        Comment


                        • https://docs.justia.com/cases/federa...v00211/89143/1
                          link to the complaint that was filed in the federal district court.
                          A canter is a cure for every evil. ~Benjamin Disraeli

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SnicklefritzG View Post
                            Which organization is responsible for given him the suspension for 15 days?
                            I agree that it was done to send a message and to stick it to as many people as possible from the MS camp.

                            Wasn't it enough that MS was DQ's? Apparently not. I think whoever did this (the stewards? Or was it the KY racing commission?) is sending the message not to fight these decisions because they will come back with teeth barred.

                            Many articles have been written on both sides of the issue regarding the actual DQ, was it fair or not and was it done with the proper amount of transparency. Regardless of which side one is on with respect to that issue, I think it is safe to say that MS's jockey doesn't deserve 15 days given what other suspensions have been given out recently in other situations.
                            The stewards hand down the suspensions. And it's a privilege to hold a license, not a right. The stewards are obligated to the state, not the horsemen. Their job is to uphold the rules of racing. They can, and do, kick people off the track at will. Most of the time rightfully so. They can, and do, deny license applications.
                            "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

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                            • I don't follow sports except involving horses, so I'm pretty clueless on other arenas. But most sports have referees/umpires/judges of some sort there during the play. Right?

                              Is there any other major sport in America where the decisions of those referees/umpires/judges made during the game are subject to appeal afterwards, when the game is over? Would any other sport's officials be expected to meet with the "offended" team and explain their decision and give that team a chance to have a hearing with the officials to present their side? Is there any other major sport where the referees/umpires/judges would be expected to give a public press conference AND take questions right after the game?

                              I have lived in Missouri a good while, and I remember something decades ago in overheard conversations, newspapers, etc., about a game where Kansas City played St. Louis in baseball. Big topic, agitated a lot of people, though not me, and in the opinion of most I overheard, the umpire blew it. People were mad. People said their team had been robbed. This was, in this neck of the woods, a BIG deal, a disgrace, a dark day in sports, etc., etc., insert the standard phrases.

                              But I don't remember hearing about a public press conference after the game by the umpires taking questions. I don't remember an appeal. I don't remember a lawsuit. I remember that people were mad, disagreed with the call, and eventually (most of them, at least) got over it and realized that the game was now over, whether good or bad call. Probably some still feel today that lo these decades ago, they got "robbed." Maybe they're right. But that's sports.
                              Last edited by dressagetraks; May. 16, 2019, 12:18 AM.
                              Now available in Kindle as well as print: C-Sharp Minor: My Mother's Seventeen-Year Journey through Dementia. 10% of my proceeds will be donated to the Alzheimer's Association.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dressagetraks View Post
                                Is there any other major sport in America where the decisions of those referees/umpires/judges made during the game are subject to appeal afterwards, when the game is over? Would any other sport's officials be expected to meet with the "offended" team and explain their decision and give that team a chance to have a hearing with the officials to present their side? Is there any other major sport where the referees/umpires/judges would be expected to give a public press conference AND take questions right after the game?
                                NASCAR in some respects given that auto racing and horse racing may be considered a bit different.

                                There are penalties that may be assessed prior to the race starting and that penalty may include starting at the rear of the field. There are penalties that may be assessed during the race (restarting at the rear of the field, going down pit road while the race is continuing). There are penalties that may be assessed after the race; those may include docking team and/or driver points or penalties to be applied at the next race.

                                NASCAR is a private organization; their rules, their game. Some of the penalties such as those docking points, may be appealed by the team (both docking points and the appeal are post race). NASCAR doesn't usually uphold the appeal but they have done so.

                                NASCAR has a pretty strict set of rules and they are constantly updating them as teams and their associated support staff become more "creative" with their cars and engines. NASCAR also skirts a fine line of bumping and banging and not deliberately dumping someone into the wall.

                                Much more technology goes into the entities racing (the car, engine, team, etc) with multiple cameras, data collection in the car, cameras monitor each pit stall during the race for pit stall infractions; a quite (IMO) impressive laser scanning system that templates the external car body including the underside).

                                Much of this would be so much more difficult to do in a horse race.


                                Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                                Comment


                                • You can't exactly stop a horse race and then restart it again at the quarter pole. WRT horse racing, each state establishes it's own rules, and in KY, the decision of the stewards is final. Similar to what Where'sMyWhite posted above, horsemen are looking for ways to gain a competitive advantage and sometimes they come too close to breaking the rules. Yeah, they also do break the rules. A lot of what happens in a race is a judgment call, and if you allowed appeals and the decisions of the stewards to be overturned, it's be nonstop. Just like in other sports - can you imagine having a dozen referee calls a game being appealed, like basketball or football?
                                  "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                  Comment



                                  • I have lived in Missouri a good while, and I remember something decades ago in overheard conversations, newspapers, etc., about a game where Kansas City played St. Louis in baseball. Big topic, agitated a lot of people, though not me, and in the opinion of most I overheard, the umpire blew it. People were mad. People said their team had been robbed. This was, in this neck of the woods, a BIG deal, a disgrace, a dark day in sports, etc., etc., insert the standard phrases.

                                    I am reeling at that! DT, you are talking about the '85 World Series! And yes, there was a blown call, and yes, it cost St. Louis the game, and forced a seventh game, and yes the Royals (yay) DID romp home something like 11-0. You, I am sure are old enough to remember that yes? A Missouri resident? Even if you didn't follow baseball, and I know you are down in the southern part, but you surely could not escape that hoopla!
                                    And then just this year the big deal with the Saints in a playoff game in football. Now I do not follow football much at all, but even I heard about this. A referee made a terrible call and it cost the Saints the game. People were probably more angry about that as I think more people follow football than they do racing. But those decisions stand.


                                    Another killer of threads

                                    Comment


                                    • The only thing I have seen go to court in professional sports is suspensions. I have never seen a call that cost the game, or a player “DQ’d” mid game go this far.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Larksmom View Post
                                        I have lived in Missouri a good while, and I remember something decades ago in overheard conversations, newspapers, etc., about a game where Kansas City played St. Louis in baseball. Big topic, agitated a lot of people, though not me, and in the opinion of most I overheard, the umpire blew it. People were mad. People said their team had been robbed. This was, in this neck of the woods, a BIG deal, a disgrace, a dark day in sports, etc., etc., insert the standard phrases.

                                        I am reeling at that! DT, you are talking about the '85 World Series! And yes, there was a blown call, and yes, it cost St. Louis the game, and forced a seventh game, and yes the Royals (yay) DID romp home something like 11-0. You, I am sure are old enough to remember that yes? A Missouri resident? Even if you didn't follow baseball, and I know you are down in the southern part, but you surely could not escape that hoopla!
                                        And then just this year the big deal with the Saints in a playoff game in football. Now I do not follow football much at all, but even I heard about this. A referee made a terrible call and it cost the Saints the game. People were probably more angry about that as I think more people follow football than they do racing. But those decisions stand.

                                        As a result of that totally blown ref call in the Saint's game, the NFL now allows teams to challenge pass interference calls (or lack there of) during the game. If the challenge is unsubstantiated they lose a timeout as with when calls on plays are challenged and don't stand.
                                        Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

                                        Comment


                                        • In all probability, the court will dismiss this indicating that it has no standing to adjudicate a sport's rules when the participants explicitly agreed to abide by the steward's rulings and the stewards actually ruled which is the Due process. Even the most ardent Maximum Security advocate isn't claiming that the stewards didn't consider its ruling. The stewards took 22 minutes to consider the ruling--the Wests are simply saying they came to the wrong conclusion. That is where I predict a court won't go and shouldn't.

                                          Can you imagine the precedent? Someone always doesn't like what the umpire, referee, steward, or placing judge decides. There is usually one howler in every national championship. Are they all going to end up in court?

                                          I think an analogy the court might appreciate is in private arbitration. Many times in litigation, the parties agree to a private arbitrator and take the dispute outside the court system to save money and time. They then agree to the rules of the private arbitration forum. Once that happens, an aggrieved party can't appeal the decision absent overt bias or fraud--which is a tremendous burden to overcome.

                                          The Wests need to accept the decision gracefully and get their revenge in the time honored sportsman manner. They need to put that horse back on the track and beat the stuffings out of all the other contenders. This is just making them look small and frankly potentially hurting their horse's second career because perception rules stallion selection. Their horse's class needs to overcome their lack of class IMO.

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