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The Triple Crown Races 2019

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  • Originally posted by Larksmom View Post
    does anyone remember, and I know some of you do what happened with Afleet Alex? I do not remember the year, but it was a TC race, and he nearly went down. There was a furor, but the interfering horse was a longshot and didn't win.
    Oh, I remember. That was the biggest exacta payment I ever walked away from the widow with. Almost 500. Afleet Alex and Scrappy T. Had Scrappy because a poster here on COTH had been galloping him mornings at his home track and she shared he felt keen for a big effort and the trainer was very optimistic. Wasn’t a big powerhouse field so the trick was finding a live longshot for the exacta with AA.

    They found each other on the same piece of real estate out towards mid track at the head of the stretch with no other horses close. Think AA drifted a little bit out and ST fell way in right into him. I thought I’d wasted a bigger bet then I usually place and they were both going down, But they didn’t and finished 1-2. There was no foul because the only horses they interfered with were each other and even though ST was more at fault, he was beaten by the one he interfered with, again, nobody else in the mix Which was not the case in this years Derby.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
      ………...But the entire incident makes Flavian Prat look like the worlds biggest crybaby. He knew what happened regardless of not being affected at all, and he knew what he would gained if he protested and won. War of Wills jockey didn't gain anything so they let things be.
      I watched the interview of Flavian Prat on CBS this morning, did I hear correctly that he had won another, (or other races) by making protest(s)? I may have misunderstood but that's what it sounded like.
      Last edited by js; May. 6, 2019, 05:20 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by js View Post

        I watched the interview of Flavian Prat on CBS this morning, did I hear correctly that he had won another, (or other races) by making protest(s)?
        Why would he admit it if he did. Flavian Prat knew what his protest would get him if he won the objection, being the 2nd place horse. If he didn't win the objection, he would stay in 2nd place, and walk away no worse for the wear. Country House was unaffected by any bumping or cutting-off actions. If he was on War of Will I could see his reasoning for filing the protest.

        Comment


        • I think this derby sent a loud and clear message about safety: the stewards are taking it seriously.

          Just read the Bob Baffert response: "Sometimes you have to take your ass-kickings with dignity."

          That's all fine and well... except racing has to realize this is the 21st century and animal welfare is a national concern. If racing can't be safe, then it's not going to exist much longer. Period. So we have to call out unsafe practices and enforce our rules. It's the only way to survive.
          Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

          Comment


          • I'll ask again for all that are still thinking Maximum Security should not have been set down.

            What would you be saying today if the exact same incident too place except War Of Will went down instead of staying on his feed? What would you be saying today if one or two horses ended up being euthanized after falling over War of Will after he fell?

            Would you still be on Maximum Security's side that he was not at fault and the fall was all on War of Will?
            Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
              Country House's sire, Looking at Lucky, won the Preakness. It would be great to see the top finishers back in action at the Preakness.
              I would like to see it as a Derby "do-over." But I've been watching racing long enough to know that of course it would not be.
              Rack on!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
                First of all I am absolutely gutted for Maximum Security's connections. I had money on MS, I knew he was something special. And I can't imagine going from the highest of highs to having to walk back to the barn empty handed. I was so thrilled for his trainer and his owners to have finally experienced the greatest victory in the sport. And to do it with a homebred!

                I watched the race and I saw the incident live on TV and the subsequent thousands of replays.

                First of all, Luis Saez did nothing wrong. And Tyler Gaflione has said that himself (jockey of War of Will). If you watched the replay around the far turn, War of Will was running rank under a strong hold behind Maximum Security. Long Range Toddy was sitting next to Maximum Security's right flank where he had been for much of the backstretch. War of Will made the exact same move as Maximum Security and moved over a lane when there was no lane for him to even try to pass MS.

                War of Will was making this move into a hole that wasn't even there, even if MS hadn't moved over; there was no lane for him to take and he was on a path to hit Long Range Toddy and MS. At that point, War of Will ran into the hind end of Maximum Security who had moved over in the same synchronization as War of Will who then ran into the side of Long Range Toddy who then bumped BodeExpress. Country House was at BodeExpress's flank and was never touched in the incident. But if you look at the head on still-photos; Country House was essentially leaning on him around the final turn. At this point; Code of Honor is still sitting on the inside, 1 length behind this

                Did Code of Honor get bumped by MS when he made his rail move? Yes he did. But his jock should've expected that coming in on the rail like that. Look at the Derby hat Mine that Bird won. He essentially got put into the rail along the top of the stretch because no one expected him to sneak in like that. Its a risky move. group, unaffected. Code of Honor was bumped when MS came back to the rail several strides later.

                Did Maximum Security "Impede" War of Will. For me, that is a hard question to answer, but yes. Did he do it maliciously or with intent, absolutely not. If War of Will had stayed where he was, he would've been unaffected. He was making a run at nonexistent space. If you ask me, the problem started when War of Will ran up on MS and made his own hole at the top of the stretch.

                The track was an absolute mess. The people could barely do the walkover on the track it was so soupy and sticky and disgusting. Even the NBC reporters were having a hard time walking over on that track; sealed or not. There were massive puddles all over the track, mainly along the rail where the tractor tires once were driving. You can see MS shy away from one of those deep puddles in the turn which is when he swapped leads and moved right. (Same move War of Will made behind him). If you look at any of the photos and videos; Luis Saez immediately grabbed his left rein and tried to straighten him out. There was nothing malicious about what happened, just a green-bean horse out on a disgusting track, with 150,000 people screaming and a 20 horse stampede.

                Country House ran a great race. His winner circle photo makes him look like Big Red standing out there. He's a beautiful horse.
                I know this is not the rule but if the front runner is DQ'd, I honestly believe there shall be no-named winner in the race. Until the end of time, Country House will never be the winner for me. If they want to DQ Maximum Security for the green-horse move on the turn, fine, I can live with that. But it just doesn't sit well with me that Country House is suddenly named the winner when he didn't cross the line first. And to advertise him as a Kentucky Derby winner or his sire for siring a KY derby winner, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He wasn't the best horse on Saturday; regardless. Was he good, yes. Did he run a great race, yes. But he wasn't the best. But rules are rules I suppose.


                But the entire incident makes Flavian Prat look like the worlds biggest crybaby. He knew what happened regardless of not being affected at all, and he knew what he would gained if he protested and won. War of Wills jockey didn't gain anything so they let things be.
                Which Big Red?

                Man o' War was the first and will always be the only Big Red for me.

                I felt the same way about Foward Pass after he was awarded the "win" from Dancer's Image. FP did not win the Derby. Dancer's Image was disqualified though no fault of his own.

                And when I think of the 3-year-olds I have ridden ...

                Maybe they should only race draft breeds -- and only after they're about 7!
                Rack on!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Larksmom View Post
                  I perhaps worded that wrongly. I do mean the gambling public. That is why there are about 1 and 1\2 hours between the race b4 the Derby and the Derby. NBC would probably(?, maybe not,) enjoy moving it back some so they didn't have to cover all the silliness surrounding this whole thing. Although it does bring in the eyeballs.
                  Greed? Want to win? Bragging rights. Sure that is a part of it. Greed might not be the right word, but Maximum effort is put into the whole thing. But how many actual Derby winners ever turn out to be great sires? Besides Seattle Slew?
                  Northern Dancer, Unbridled, Sunday Silence, Pleasant Colony, Street Sense...

                  Winning the Derby is almost guaranteed to get you a chance to try. Coming in second, not so much.
                  www.laurienberenson.com

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Larksmom View Post
                    But how many actual Derby winners ever turn out to be great sires? Besides Seattle Slew?
                    Northern Dancer did OK in the breeding shed.
                    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by js View Post

                      I watched the interview of Flavian Prat on CBS this morning, did I hear correctly that he had won another, (or other races) by making protest(s)? I may have misunderstood but that's what it sounded like.
                      He is hired to ride to the best possible finish he can, and that includes lodging an objection if he feels a foul occurred and it will move his horse up. He is morally and ethically bound to do the best possible job for the people who hire him. He did good to stay out of trouble and get his horse to finish up as best he could, and he did the correct and right thing by claiming a foul. He did his job.
                      "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Maythehorsebewithme View Post
                        C***! I don't see how an appeal will 1) generate a different outcome; 2) help the image of horse racing. I think it will just prolong what has already been a miserable situation.

                        If Mr. West and/or his trainer do not feel the horse will be ready for the Preakness, that is their decision. However, I hope the withdrawal is not in answer to what happened at Churchill Downs. Pimlico had nothing to do with that.
                        “We don’t like mean ol’ Churchill Downs! Mean ol' Stewards!! We’re gonna’ take our horsie and go HOME!”

                        Originally posted by Texarkana View Post
                        I think this derby sent a loud and clear message about safety: the stewards are taking it seriously.

                        Just read the Bob Baffert response:

                        "Sometimes you have to take your ass-kickings with dignity."

                        That's all fine and well... except racing has to realize this is the 21st century and animal welfare is a national concern. If racing can't be safe, then it's not going to exist much longer. Period. So we have to call out unsafe practices and enforce our rules. It's the only way to survive.
                        Texarkana, you are right. It’s not the old days anymore.

                        Earlier someone posted a link to an article:

                        https://www.drf.com/news/watchmaker-...derby-dq?type=

                        An excerpt (bold mine):

                        “The crux of the matter is what you consider to be an actionable foul, and the number of definitions of that roughly equals the number of regular participants in this game, which is a whole lot. But the general rule of thumb, and one I strongly subscribe to, is if a horse does something to a competitor that costs that competitor a better placing, then it is a foul.

                        I think most people would agree with this. The problem is, the Kentucky Derby has, over the years, developed some sort of immunity to this reasonable approach, and a lot of nasty cowboy stuff has been overlooked. And that’s not right.

                        The Kentucky Derby should be officiated exactly like the many thousands of other races that are run every year. And that means if a horse does something in the Kentucky Derby that clearly costs another a better placing, then that horse should pay the price, whether he finishes first, or fifth, or whatever.”

                        BB has been in the high-end race game for a long time, and has more Derbys under his belt than most. He is quoted in another article, that:

                        “It’s always a roughly run race,” Baffert told Layden. “Twenty-horse field. I have been wiped out numerous times, but that is the Derby. I can see by the book why they did it. But sometimes you’ve got to take your ass-kickings with dignity.”

                        Bob Baffert is an old-timer. A “roughly run race” is what he is accustomed to for the Derby. That old-timer attitude needs to end, and Baffert needs to catch up with the rest of the world. When safety is concerned, that race must not have any sort of “unspoken understanding” or “immunity” that allows unsafe, or “rough” racing to go on. If anything, the Derby should be even more stringently enforced than other races simply because of the size of the race day audience. The Stewards did the exact right thing. The Derby is special, but not THAT special.

                        Racing is so much more than gambling. It’s history, culture, beauty and spectacle all rolled up together. People enjoy seeing and experiencing that, and betting while they enjoy the show. When there is a foul, and the one who committed the foul gets away with it, it tarnishes the show. Think of the big, bloody blemish on the show if War of Will had not danced so well (GAWD, I LOVE that horse). The way that group was running together, my guess would have been at least one dead horse and probably a dead jockey too.

                        You think the outcry about SA was bad.

                        “A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparrowette View Post
                          “We don’t like mean ol’ Churchill Downs! Mean ol' Stewards!! We’re gonna’ take our horsie and go HOME!”
                          Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                          Comment


                          • The appeal has been denied.
                            https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...won-t-n1002266
                            “A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”

                            Comment


                            • That was quick...
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Today I will be happier than a bird with a french fry.

                              Comment


                              • I'm thinking KHRC had time to think about what they'd do even before the appeal showed up...

                                Glad to see that it appears that KHRC backs their stewards' decision.


                                Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                                Comment


                                • In all his ranting and raving, Gary West makes some valid criticisms of the Kentucky Derby. I totally agree with his point regarding the field size.

                                  Yet I have a hard time taking him seriously when he and his wife had TWO horses entered in the race Saturday. If you really have so many problems with the institution, then why are you aiming your horses for it?

                                  They have every right to be beside themselves after what happened. But bashing the Kentucky Derby only makes you look petty when you have entered at least 6 different horses in the race over the years.
                                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Sparrowette View Post
                                    The article indicates that there is no appeal mechanism for the decision of stewards.
                                    A canter is a cure for every evil. ~Benjamin Disraeli

                                    Comment


                                    • I feel like so much of the freakout of the general public is just because there's no comment about the bump during the live call of the race, so people who aren't used to watching races didn't realize in real time what had happened. But it is clear to me that the stewards made the correct call.
                                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post

                                        I watched the race and I saw the incident live on TV and the subsequent thousands of replays.

                                        First of all, Luis Saez did nothing wrong. And Tyler Gaflione has said that himself (jockey of War of Will). If you watched the replay around the far turn, War of Will was running rank under a strong hold behind Maximum Security. Long Range Toddy was sitting next to Maximum Security's right flank where he had been for much of the backstretch. War of Will made the exact same move as Maximum Security and moved over a lane when there was no lane for him to even try to pass MS.

                                        War of Will was making this move into a hole that wasn't even there, even if MS hadn't moved over; there was no lane for him to take and he was on a path to hit Long Range Toddy and MS. At that point, War of Will ran into the hind end of Maximum Security who had moved over in the same synchronization as War of Will who then ran into the side of Long Range Toddy who then bumped BodeExpress. Country House was at BodeExpress's flank and was never touched in the incident. But if you look at the head on still-photos; Country House was essentially leaning on him around the final turn.
                                        THIS!! I’m not the only one that also thinks WOW caused much of this, by trying to make a hole were there wasn’t one.

                                        I find the whole incident to have been very poorly handled by the stewards.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Texarkana View Post
                                          In all his ranting and raving, Gary West makes some valid criticisms of the Kentucky Derby. I totally agree with his point regarding the field size.

                                          Yet I have a hard time taking him seriously when he and his wife had TWO horses entered in the race Saturday. If you really have so many problems with the institution, then why are you aiming your horses for it?

                                          They have every right to be beside themselves after what happened. But bashing the Kentucky Derby only makes you look petty when you have entered at least 6 different horses in the race over the years.
                                          You won't get argument from me that the field size should be reviewed but he's the wrong messenger and this is the wrong time. It's that whole argument by misdirection that is getting so tiresome.

                                          Earlier this year, horses broke down at Santa Anita. Let's review whips and Lasix including at tracks that aren't Santa Anita.

                                          A horse gets DQ'd at the Derby. While some turf writers and critics are trying to connect it somehow to Santa Anita, others like West are just grasping that it must be the fact 19 ran even though that's been the case since the 80s. Hell Cannonade beat 23 other horses in 1974. Nevermind in this case that only a small fraction of the field was involved in the actual foul.

                                          It's almost like certain factions are lobbyists and they can't let a good crisis go to waste. The sport be damned. My grievance must be heard.

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