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The Triple Crown Races 2019

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  • Originally posted by dressagetraks View Post
    Picture I saw online that really shows it. Very impressed with War of Will's athleticism to stay up.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Maximum Security and War of Will.jpg
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    There are times when I am convinced God is involved. War of Will wove through Max's hind legs like it was choreographed.
    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      Miserable ending that I guess makes very few people happy. I don't care for the comments, here and in the press, about "cheating" to win. This was not "cheating"--whether or not you agree with the decision, Saez did not attempt to "cheat". MS was being a horse, Saez was being a jockey.

      I believe it is up to the stewards to decide whether or not to punish the jockey with a suspension. I hope they don't give Saez a suspension. I don't think it was reckless riding. I think he was as surprised as anyone by MS's duck out (whether the colt spooked or, as some have thought, dodged a puddle), and he pulled MS back right away.

      Comment


      • You rarely see suspensions involving riders of this caliber.
        "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

        Comment


        • Here is a 2013 article about chief steward Barbara Borden:

          https://www.paulickreport.com/news/p...nder-pressure/
          "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

            There are times when I am convinced God is involved. War of Will wove through Max's hind legs like it was choreographed.
            Amen.
            Rack on!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

              When you are involved in racing and watch it all day long, you get a feel for whether or not a horse has forward momentum or is done.

              War of Will was trying to get through a hole that was not really there. Tyler originally was trying to come up the rail, but Saez had the rail shut down, so he then tried to go around the outside, along with about 5 other horses. Had he sat still for about 3 more seconds he could have come up the rail. It's common for horses to drift wide on the far turn - you have to expect it as a rider. So if you are trying to come around the leader into a hole, you better shoot through there like a bullet because it's not going to stay there.

              The stewards allow some drift and some contact because it's inevitable, and they have the authority to decide when normal routine bumping rises to the level of a foul.

              Did a foul occur? Yes. That was pretty obvious. Did it affect the outcome of the race? That's what took 20 minutes to decide. The stewards decided that the foul cost Long Range Toddy any chance of placing, and put Max behind LRT.

              Max was much the best horse. Bill Mott and Flavian did their jobs, and did them well.

              Country House was not on my ticket at all. I watched him gallop a couple days ago and he was switching leads all over the place and gawking at the grandstand and everything else. Kind of ironic as he went straight down the middle of the track like a machine yesterday.
              Which IMO counters the posted opinion that he is not good enough to win the Triple Crown. A longshot coming up out of the pack like he did is certainly a good horse, regardless of his connections.

              I'm concerned that yesterday's mess, on top of the deaths at Santa Anita, following the problems with Pimlico, and the earlier closing of Hialeah and demise of one of the oldest Derby prep races (which was not moved to a different track but just eliminated) will, as others have said here, have a seriously detrimental effect on racing.

              Whether the view is taken that racing is being affected by speshul snowflakes crying foul, or that it is getting too hard on the horses, I have a feeling we are going to be seeing a sea-change in horse racing.

              Maybe it will benefit the horses, if not the pockets of their connections.
              Rack on!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                There are times when I am convinced God is involved. War of Will wove through Max's hind legs like it was choreographed.

                You bet. If you watched the Oaks telecast, horse got sideswiped at the start, clipped heels and went upside down with legs flailing skyward and jockey rolling beside her. right smack in front of the grandstand. Miracle she didn’t roll over on the jock, got up and cantered away...not real fast tho, she was shaken as was the jockey. Kind of thing racing does not not need and can’t afford even though nobody died. When I saw the slow mo of the Derby and that picture with the foreleg between the others hind legs? They are so lucky. Just so lucky. There’s no other words.

                Saez isn’t a suicidal idiot either. There were several other horses in that pack that would have been wiped out had he clipped and gone down, Max very likely could have gone down and unlikely it would have ended well. Would have been like throwing a NASCAR block three wide at Daytona. People want to blame somebody, Saez isn’t it.

                Really disliked the booing the owners at the winners presentation. Stewards absolutely made the correct decision for everybody and Racing
                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post
                  You rarely see suspensions involving riders of this caliber.
                  Mike Smith last May, 4 day suspension. Didn't keep him out of the Preakness but yes, top riders can get riding suspensions.
                  Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Altag View Post
                    Does anyone have a link to an aerial view of the race?
                    I do not believe there is an 'aerial' view of this race (sometimes yes, but don't recall one today). NBC had a TV camera on a cable that parallels the back stretch.

                    The stewards had 5 views they used for review but none were an aerial view.
                    Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MorganJunkie View Post
                      I know this question may frustrate those with knowledge, but how do officials determine the placings? Really, they were still running and anything could have happened.
                      This has been, IMO, covered in the media and above here.

                      We determined that the 7 horse drifted out and impacted the progress of the number 1, in turn interfering with the 18 and 21. Those horses were all affected, we thought, by the interference, therefore we unanimously determined to disqualify number 7 and place him behind the 18, the 18 being the lowest-placed horse that he bothered, which is our typical procedure.”
                      Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                      Comment


                      • Only thing that I thought a bit unusual is in all the write-ups I've seen, no mention that neither Tyler Gaffalione or Mark Casse (rider and trainer of War Of Will) have been mentioned as lodging an objection and, IMO, War Of Will was most impacted during the race by Maximum Security's 3 lane drift.
                        Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by findeight View Post


                          You bet. If you watched the Oaks telecast, horse got sideswiped at the start, clipped heels and went upside down with legs flailing skyward and jockey rolling beside her. right smack in front of the grandstand. Miracle she didn’t roll over on the jock, got up and cantered away...not real fast tho, she was shaken as was the jockey. Kind of thing racing does not not need and can’t afford even though nobody died. When I saw the slow mo of the Derby and that picture with the foreleg between the others hind legs? They are so lucky. Just so lucky. There’s no other words.

                          Saez isn’t a suicidal idiot either. There were several other horses in that pack that would have been wiped out had he clipped and gone down, Max very likely could have gone down and unlikely it would have ended well. Would have been like throwing a NASCAR block three wide at Daytona. People want to blame somebody, Saez isn’t it.

                          Really disliked the booing the owners at the winners presentation. Stewards absolutely made the correct decision for everybody and Racing
                          I think they were booing Matt Bevin, the largely unpopular KY governor.

                          The stewards upheld the rules as written in Ky. Maximum Security interfered with two horses and likely affected their placing. It doesn't matter that War of Will and Long Range Toddy would not have won; they could have finished 5th or 6th or anywhere better than their ultimate result. The same decision would have applied in a maiden claiming race on another day, and to uphold fairness it has to apply in the Derby too.

                          Few people would be on Maximum Security's side if War of Will had went down in a pile up.

                          In a way, I think this controversy is good for racing. It has millions talking about the race, debating it, watching replays, having opinions. And it's not because a horse was fatally injured, or drugged. It's an instant replay official discussion, that modern sports fans understand, even if they don't know the actual racing rules. It keeps the sport in the public eye a little longer, and more people will remember this Derby then I'll Have Another or Orb.
                          A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.
                          ? Albert Einstein

                          ~AJ~

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post

                            I watched the same post-race coverage on NBC as everyone else. If you listened to Mott's comments on the objection (Country House's trainer), he never said (that I heard) that he felt that County House was really interfered with. He did state that he felt that Maximum Security's drift almost causing War of Will to not just clip heels but fall. That was Mott's bigger objection (that I took away from his interview) not that Country House was interfered with but that War of Will almost fell. That would have been a PR nightmare... sorry, it would have been.

                            That video would have been on continuous loop "Carnage at the Derby!" and there would be hearings next week. It would have made Santa Anita look like a ballgame in the park.

                            Seriously people could have died yesterday but for the athleticism of War of Will.

                            Frankly the inquiry light should have lit before they hit the wire. It says a lot that there were two jock objections when there hadn't been a single one since 2001- and neither one was Gafflione weirdly enough.

                            The head steward was the one who gave the speech in the jocks room before the race. The race was going to be clean, that they would take care of each other out there and the horses entrusted to them. Apparently she was serious about it and, far from being a scandal, that is a good thing.



                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post

                              Mike Smith last May, 4 day suspension. Didn't keep him out of the Preakness but yes, top riders can get riding suspensions.
                              Riders get suspended all the time but there is the whole designated race BS in which they can be suspended but ride in big stakes.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Pronzini View Post

                                Riders get suspended all the time but there is the whole designated race BS in which they can be suspended but ride in big stakes.
                                I know riders get suspended all time. Was just pointing out that even the big name riders can also get set down.

                                Yeah, I'd also think BS when there are ways around the suspension to get to ride in a big race but that's just me...

                                Wonder if Saez will get set down at all or if the DQ was enough "punishment" for all parties involved. Could have gotten very ugly and luckily didn't. I liked being able to hear the 'briefing' in the jock's room before the race from Barbara to take care of the horses entrusted to their care. Very true. The owners and the trainers loose all control once those horses hit the track for the post parade. It's all on the jocks then.
                                Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                                Comment


                                • https://www.facebook.com/19431677392...78&v=e&sfns=mo

                                  Comment


                                  • You all know that NY banned gambling on horse racing at the end of the nineteenth or beginning of the twentieth century. More than a few rich racing owners moved their horses to France and GB and continued to race and breed over there. When WWI broke out, most of them moved their stables back to the US (and I think NY passed legislation allowing gambling on races again).

                                    So if PETA does manage to shut down racing in California, one would think that owners would just move. Racing will most likely always continue in "backward", "unwoke" places like Louisiana, Kentucky, and Arkansas.

                                    Comment


                                    • Random, disjointed thoughts...

                                      First, so glad that all horses and jocks came home safe when that could have been catastrophic!

                                      The Wests have to be the classiest horse owners on the planet, well done!

                                      Even though the rules state that any jock can cry foul, it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth that Country Houses's connections did it when they were not interfered with in the race and stood to gain the most.

                                      Maximum Security was clearly the best horse that day. we will see if he can go on to win either the Preakness or the Belmont. I don't think Country House can.

                                      The stewards got the call right; there was interference, but I thought the rule is , if unintentional, ( looked like MS just spooked a bit), then a foul is given, not a DQ. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can enlighten me about this rule. What kind of penalty does an unintentional interference usually incur?

                                      I get that there is 145 years of tradition involved, but how about limiting the field to a smaller number. I know that won't prevent all accidents, but it might help.

                                      Why were the Derby races initially limited to 3 year olds? Wouldn't running 4 yr olds make more sense? More time to grow and get their brains a bit more mature?

                                      Ayway... another blight on horse racing.Ugh... ☹️

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by AffirmedHope View Post

                                        I think it’s sour grapes because Country House wasn’t impacted by the drift (he looked to stay on the same path to me in the replays) and they are the ones that raised the objection. Had the objection come from War of Wills’ people I might feel differently. That will probably end up being a major factor in a lawsuit of the Maximum Security’s people choose to pursue that path.
                                        I have a feeling that the stewards, although apparently qualified for their jobs, will be in a legal hot seat l
                                        Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                        Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by EventerAJ View Post

                                          I think they were booing Matt Bevin, the largely unpopular KY governor.

                                          The stewards upheld the rules as written in Ky. Maximum Security interfered with two horses and likely affected their placing. It doesn't matter that War of Will and Long Range Toddy would not have won; they could have finished 5th or 6th or anywhere better than their ultimate result. The same decision would have applied in a maiden claiming race on another day, and to uphold fairness it has to apply in the Derby too.

                                          Few people would be on Maximum Security's side if War of Will had went down in a pile up.

                                          In a way, I think this controversy is good for racing. It has millions talking about the race, debating it, watching replays, having opinions. And it's not because a horse was fatally injured, or drugged. It's an instant replay official discussion, that modern sports fans understand, even if they don't know the actual racing rules. It keeps the sport in the public eye a little longer, and more people will remember this Derby then I'll Have Another or Orb.
                                          And racing is serious about it's rules. It's not the Omak stampede out there.

                                          I dipped my beak in Twitter yesterday--always a scary thing-- and a couple of points stood out--a lot of people either didn't know or didn't care that 1) the stewards don't work for the track so this was not Churchill's decision; 2) that the rules are specific to Kentucky so what ever happened at some BC race in Santa Anita or the 5th at Aqueduct is irrelevant; and 3) official racing takes bets under a paramutual system. It doesn't matter if Country House was 65 - 1 or 3-5. The house has no incentive to put one up over the other --and it doesn't have a say anyway.

                                          Comment

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