Do you ever feel skeptical about horse sales advertisements?

[mmeqcenter]

Do you ever not feel skeptical about a horse ad?

[Garnet_Z]

"Horse needs an extremely experienced and confident rider" = death awaits you if you ride this horse.

I've also learned that if the ad mentions that children have ridden the horse, ask about the fate of said children. I looked at a horse that had been used in children's lessons and later learned that she had dumped one off several times. To be fair to the horse, the lessons given at this place were questionable at best, but I'm not a good enough rider to 'undo' bad habits that a horse has learned.

[Backstage]

Both buying and selling can be miserable.

My current favorite, however, is a sale advertisement for an older, quiet, serviceably sound gelding. Said horse is described in glowing terms as being a babysitter, easy to care for/ride, and just generally lovely for a recreational rider.

The ad goes on to state that owner will trade - for either a pony, or a beginner friendly horse who would be good for occasional riding/hacking.

At no point, does the seller state why her beginner friendly horse is being sold or traded...in order for her to acquire another beginner friendly horse. There may well be a valid reason, but it would be helpful to state it, or at least have separate 'for sale' and 'looking for ads'.

[Impractical Horsewoman]

In answer to the OP's question:

http://www.shoptv.com/img/product/re...catl&sn=shoptv

My favorite soundness red flag are ads for horses that have no actual dressage record but are being sold "to a dressage home only. No jumping." Although all of the photos are of the horse, you know, jumping when they were presumably healthy enough to jump.

[Backstage]

In answer to the OP's question:

http://www.shoptv.com/img/product/re...catl&sn=shoptv

My favorite soundness red flag are ads for horses that have no actual dressage record but are being sold "to a dressage home only. No jumping." Although all of the photos are of the horse, you know, jumping when they were presumably healthy enough to jump.

As long as everyone is open and transparent - what is the issue? It would be disingenuous to suggest that an animal that is not sound for jumping will be someone's next PSG horse. But a lower level dressage home, even if the horse shows, is going to be lower impact than one that involves lots of jumping. Depends on the injury, of course, but this can be a win-win as long as the seller is honest.

[KittyinAus]

As long as everyone is open and transparent - what is the issue? It would be disingenuous to suggest that an animal that is not sound for jumping will be someone's next PSG horse. But a lower level dressage home, even if the horse shows, is going to be lower impact than one that involves lots of jumping. Depends on the injury, of course, but this can be a win-win as long as the seller is honest.

I am familiar with the type of advertisements being referred to. There is no mention of the horse being unsound, only that the horse is suitable for dressage. The photos all are of the horse jumping and there is no mention of what level of dressage training the horse has. The reader is forced to read between the lines and conclude that the horse is no longer sound for jumping. You have to read between the lines because the seller has not put it in the advertisement. I don't think that could be considered transparent.

Sometimes you see a mare being sold as a brood mare because she's unsound and these often show jumping photos but they also include a statement that says that the mare is unsound.

[TheJenners]

When someone is selling a particular breed horse that is uncommon up here (Connemara) but it has no papers. Yep, I raised an eyebrow at that and asked his pedigree, if known. Because there has to be a reason that a sound 15 yo 14hh Connie is going for... $700. Granted the pic was Connemara-like, but still. The odd/uncommon breed without papers and anything where they state a particular cross but no papers when such papers are obtainable, such as ArabxAPHA - unless you bred it, how do you know? Pretty head? Flags its tail when ya-ya'ing around the pasture? My fat WB does that, and I know his dam and he was DNA tested for his sire.

[dags]

The reader is forced to read between the lines and conclude that the horse is no longer sound for jumping. You have to read between the lines because the seller has not put it in the advertisement. I don't think that could be considered transparent.

Or the horse doesn't want to jump.

You guys are a tough crowd. If you are constantly finding that horses do not live up to their descriptions I'd re-consider the advertising venues you are using to find said horses.

[Backstage]

I am familiar with the type of advertisements being referred to. There is no mention of the horse being unsound, only that the horse is suitable for dressage. The photos all are of the horse jumping and there is no mention of what level of dressage training the horse has. The reader is forced to read between the lines and conclude that the horse is no longer sound for jumping. You have to read between the lines because the seller has not put it in the advertisement. I don't think that could be considered transparent.

Sometimes you see a mare being sold as a brood mare because she's unsound and these often show jumping photos but they also include a statement that says that the mare is unsound.

We may have different views on what is necessary to be transparent. While I would probably include that info in the ad so as to save on emails/calls from potential buyers who would not be otherwise interested, I would have no issue if the buyer waited until that first contact was made to disclose the issue. I mean...don't wait until the potential buyer is standing in the barn. But I'm not inclined to be super picky as long as it is disclosed in a reasonable manner.

[173north]

My recent favorite is "warmblood cross" as the breed because it can truly mean anything, from "top KWPN jumper sire and TB dam" to "definitely a Quarter Horse, but we're hoping you won't notice."

It's also fun to click through to a video of a "beautiful mover, hack winner" and see the horse is head-bobbing lame.

[KittyinAus]

Little confession here. The unsound jumping horse being sold for dressage really annoys me because too many folks underestimate the amount of soundness needed to be a dressage horse. The idea that if a horse is sound enough to be a lightly ridden trail riding horse, then he must be sound enough to be a dressage horse is something that I don't agree with at all. Sadly this sort of thing happens often enough for me to be skeptical about all such horses.

I have heard of an eventer who had an operation be less than successful and then became a FEI dressage horse. He did this with the same owner/rider he had when eventing. So yes, I do think it's possible but have seen too many people just trying to get rid of unsound horses. (Walk/trot classes are few and far between and so there's not a market for a horse suited only for that. Even at the lowest levels, you are expected to canter.)

[KittyinAus]

My recent favorite is "warmblood cross" as the breed because it can truly mean anything, from "top KWPN jumper sire and TB dam" to "definitely a Quarter Horse, but we're hoping you won't notice."

It's also fun to click through to a video of a "beautiful mover, hack winner" and see the horse is head-bobbing lame.

A horse dealer once told me that a horse can be any breed you want it be if it doesn't have papers and therefore if it doesn't have papers for that breed, it isn't that breed. It's just a horse.

[Impractical Horsewoman]

Little confession here. The unsound jumping horse being sold for dressage really annoys me because too many folks underestimate the amount of soundness needed to be a dressage horse. The idea that if a horse is sound enough to be a lightly ridden trail riding horse, then he must be sound enough to be a dressage horse is something that I don't agree with at all. Sadly this sort of thing happens often enough for me to be skeptical about all such horses.

Exactly! Of course, horses can step down and have very successful careers with good training. But it would seem to be more legitimate to state that the horse was no longer sound for jumping and therefore could possibly be re-trained as a dressage horse, versus vaguely saying "dressage home only" even though the horse had never done dressage before. Also, I think a former event horse is different because the horse presumably would have some dressage training and previous scores for reference.

[Backstage]

Exactly! Of course, horses can step down and have very successful careers with good training. But it would seem to be more legitimate to state that the horse was no longer sound for jumping and therefore could possibly be re-trained as a dressage horse, versus vaguely saying "dressage home only" even though the horse had never done dressage before. Also, I think a former event horse is different because the horse presumably would have some dressage training and previous scores for reference.

I suppose I'm not bothered by it because many horses with good training and experience over fences already do dressage, and are thus able to transition quite easily to "actual" dressage. Dressage isn't super specialized training at the lower levels. The last two that I've showed as hunters could just as easily have trotted into the ring at first level and scored well. If the horse is a trainwreck to ride on the flat, the barrier to a sale isn't really the level of soundness.

If someone is looking for a horse with dressage show experience, that's another matter entirely and there are lots of horses who will check that box.

[KittyinAus]

I suppose I'm not bothered by it because many horses with good training and experience over fences already do dressage, and are thus able to transition quite easily to "actual" dressage. Dressage isn't super specialized training at the lower levels. The last two that I've showed as hunters could just as easily have trotted into the ring at first level and scored well. If the horse is a trainwreck to ride on the flat, the barrier to a sale isn't really the level of soundness.

If someone is looking for a horse with dressage show experience, that's another matter entirely and there are lots of horses who will check that box.

I envy you because you don't seem to have run across the type of seller who just wants to get rid of an unsound horse and doesn't appear to have many scruples about it.

[Backstage]

I envy you because you don't seem to have run across the type of seller who just wants to get rid of an unsound horse and doesn't appear to have many scruples about it.

I don't think that is quite case, though I have been generally fairly lucky. I just think this particular issue doesn't bother me as I've seen many lovely horses continue to be ridden even as they age or post injury. For instance, when I returned to riding after a year off, I took some lessons on a super lovely retired show horse. While I don't know the specifics, I would imagine that when he was purchased as a horse with limitations, his purchase price was much lower than a horse of equivalent quality and training who did not have any restrictions on his use. For a buyer who wants a quality horse and doesn't have upper levels aspirations, a horse with some wear and tear can be a way to achieve that at a reasonable price point.

It doesn't mean, however, that I would trust just anyone who claims a horse is still sound for dressage but shouldn't jump - I would absolutely ask A TON of questions as well as arrange for a good vetting and likely require production of vet records. At the first sign of low scruples, I would pull the plug.

[MsM]

When I was horse hunting I went to one lesson/sales barn about 160 miles away. Had e-mailed back and forth and saw a very short video and horse appeared to be appropriate. When I got there, the owner had a student on it and the horse was a head-flipping mess! I tried it briefly, but he was a much bigger project than I wanted, I asked about the horse's background and she told me that she got him from "out west" as an "English prospect" and she didn't know about his background.
A week or so later, I see the same horse is now advertised as an "American Warmblood" and "ready to show or lesson!". Fast forward a couple of months and I am checking the ads for a friend who is looking and that same horse is now an "Appendix QH" with a "great mind" - and a tight martingale!

[Montanas_Girl]

I automatically know after years of going to look at horses advertised as 16.2 and 10 years old, to deduct 4 or 5 inches from the height in the advert and add that amount of years to the age of the horse.

This is so true. As a seller, I ran into what I can only assume is a side effect of this phenomenon. The mare I was selling measured EXACTLY 14.0 1/2". I know this because I measured her multiple times to be sure. She was a purebred Arabian, and we've always made jokes about the "special Arabian measuring stick" with the bottom four inches cut off. More than 2/3 of the people who contacted me about her asked if I was *really sure* that she was "only" 14 hands tall, because "she looks much bigger!".

It was so hard not to explain that they'd probably been lied to about the actual height of pretty much every other horse they'd ever been around...

[Scribbler]

Both buying and selling can be miserable.

My current favorite, however, is a sale advertisement for an older, quiet, serviceably sound gelding. Said horse is described in glowing terms as being a babysitter, easy to care for/ride, and just generally lovely for a recreational rider.

The ad goes on to state that owner will trade - for either a pony, or a beginner friendly horse who would be good for occasional riding/hacking.

At no point, does the seller state why her beginner friendly horse is being sold or traded...in order for her to acquire another beginner friendly horse. There may well be a valid reason, but it would be helpful to state it, or at least have separate 'for sale' and 'looking for ads'.

And not run those two ads on the same website at the same time.

I got a chuckle from a beautifully worded sales ad for a kid's horse that I knew was being dumped because everyone was getting bucked off all the time. Ad said horse was a perfect gentleman and kid was changing disciplines. Then a looking-for ad from the same person popped up. They were looking for a horse in the same discipline for a timid rider, absolutely no buck bite or bolt. That gave me a smile: I didn't know the sales pony bit into the bargain!

Same when someone is selling a horse that has show miles in the two foot six, is advertised as having the scope to go to 1.5 metres, but is being sold because the rider needs to "move up." Why in heavens name isn't the rider moving up on this reputedly scopey horse? The secret answer (since I knew the situation) was: he bucks, bolts, and isn't really that scopey.

Also, really you shouldn't go around telling everyone who will listen that your old trainer ripped you off by selling you a lame horse . . . and then post it for sale.

Anyhow, like I said, most of the time when I actually know the situation, the ad is pretty hilarious.

I take them more like online dating profiles. Discount everything until you've met in person.

[dacasodivine]

Oh yes. I was thinking about writing a translation key for this.

I don't *sometimes* feel skeptical. Basically I *always* feel skeptical and the better I know the horse and owner, the more skeptical I feel.

"Great horse, sadly I don't have time to bring him to his potential and he is too nice to waste" = he scares me witless.

"Child is changing disciplines" = child is giving up horses for ballet after being bucked off ten times in a row, and is scared witless.

"Gentle giant" = walks all over you

"Great jumper prospect will trade for quiet husband horse" = he scared me witless.

"Can't ride due to injury" = he bucked me off, injured me, and I am now scared witless.

"Dressage prospect" = not sound for jumping

"Jumper prospect" = giraffe neck can't go on contact for dressage

"Schooling second level dressage" = showed training level twice, first level once for a score of 59, and then started messing with some lateral moves in the arena.

"Minimal maintenance" = hocks are blown

"No tire kickers" = please buy sight unseen because you won't like what you see IRL


That said, buying a horse that was too much for the previous owners can be a very sweet deal. As long as the owner is obviously way less competent than you are. You walk in, take Crazy Horse off their hands for a fraction of what they paid for it, and end up with a nice horse that just needs a decent rider.

"Great endurance prospect." = Runaway with no brakes or steering. I'm scared witless.