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PPE question

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  • PPE question

    If an an outside vet is doing a PPE for a buyer, is it customary for the vet or clinic to get written permission from the owner of the horse prior? My horse had a PPE and I found out a few invasive things were done out of the scope of a physical examination/x-rays. I just thought in general for any medical exam the owner would need to give permission?
    "The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"

  • #2
    IME vet's will ask what you want done during a PPE - a "standard" PPE differs depending on who's doing it. Strange that the vet didn't ask you about anything "non-standard" ahead of time (again, a vague term at best). However, I would think it's implicit in a PPE that you have the horse's current owner's permission to do a full exam on the horse. If the owner has reservations about something it would seem incumbent upon them to tell you ahead of time.

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    • Original Poster

      #3
      To be clear, I am the owner of the horse, not the buyer. The vet clinic never asked for a release or anything. Things done outside a physical exam and x-rays surprised me. I remember another horse I sold and dropped off at a clinic for a PPE and I had to sign all kinds of things for the PPE vet as the owner. In this case, there was nothing.
      "The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"

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      • #4
        I suppose in part it depends on what you consider invasive which is different things to different people but I have never been asked as the buyer or seller for owner release information for a PPE. I agree that the owner is authorizing the PPE occur and if there are things off limits, that should be noted.
        Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
        Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Feathered_Feet View Post
          IME vet's will ask what you want done during a PPE - a "standard" PPE differs depending on who's doing it. Strange that the vet didn't ask you about anything "non-standard" ahead of time (again, a vague term at best). However, I would think it's implicit in a PPE that you have the horse's current owner's permission to do a full exam on the horse. If the owner has reservations about something it would seem incumbent upon them to tell you ahead of time.
          I take it that she is the owner, not the person doing the PPE?

          You don't get to tell a possible purchaser what they can and cannot look for on a PPE. The PPE protects the purchaser. What do you define as 'invasive'?

          Comment


          • #6
            Depends on how invasive. Did the vet scope?

            Yes, as an owner I can tell a vet how invasive the PPE can be, and if they don't agree then they can buy another horse. I don't want my horse scoped and/or sedated for a PPE. I have no problems with X-Rays, ultrasounds, blood test, flexing, or most anything else. Plus if they are not treating my horse correctly, then bye bye. Not all vets are great.
            "Anyone who tries to make brownies without butter should be arrested." Ina Garten

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            • #7
              Agree on what defines "invasive" other than the usual blood draw, physical and xrays.. anything more would require owner approval.

              As a buyer, if a vet (or my representative) recommended further "invasive" tests, uh I think at that point, it would be a No Sale and I, the potential buyer would stop the PPE at that point, save my $ for another horse PPE.

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              • #8
                When you dropped the horse at the clinic where you had to sign all kinds of papers did you happen to have some type of relationship with that clinic?

                The only time (as the buyer) the vet I have used has needed anything signed by the seller was when they were also the vet for the owner of the horse. The paper work they had the seller sign was allowing them to reference their records on the horse and tell me information that might be contained in those records.

                I would guess the vet assumes the PPE specifics are cleared between the buyer and the seller before the appointment is made. The buyer is who is hiring the vet. If the seller has things they do not want done in a PPE then they need to make sure those points are made clear.

                I can see a seller saying 'no, you can not use vet practice XYZ' or the seller saying no to specific testing. Then the buyer can decide if the horse is worth it to them to do the PPE with the buyer's restrictions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As a seller I would never presume to tell the potential buyer what they can and cannot look at.

                  If it was a mare, i would fully expect the exam to include internal palpation to check of possible pregnancy or ovarian issues. Is that too invasive?

                  I dont think so. I cannot imagine what you think is "invasive" Scoping for respiratory issues heard during a stress test, acceptable. Drawing blood work, acceptable.
                  _\\]
                  -- * > hoopoe
                  Procrastinate NOW
                  Introverted Since 1957

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                  • #10
                    You were not there for the PPE? I would be there to be able to say yes or no.

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                    • #11
                      Owner/sellers generally are not present when buyer and/or their vet conduct the PPE as buyer directs.
                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by findeight View Post
                        Owner/sellers generally are not present when buyer and/or their vet conduct the PPE as buyer directs.
                        I've ALWAYS had the seller or seller's agent present during the PPE. And as a seller, I wouldn't allow a PPE without me being there. The buyer can ask I step away during the exam (which has never happened) but I'm definitely going to be there.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by luvmyhackney View Post
                          Depends on how invasive. Did the vet scope?

                          Yes, as an owner I can tell a vet how invasive the PPE can be, and if they don't agree then they can buy another horse. I don't want my horse scoped and/or sedated for a PPE. I have no problems with X-Rays, ultrasounds, blood test, flexing, or most anything else. Plus if they are not treating my horse correctly, then bye bye. Not all vets are great.
                          This
                          "The best of any breed is the thoroughbred horse..." - GHM

                          www.mmeqcenter.com

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NJRider View Post
                            To be clear, I am the owner of the horse, not the buyer. The vet clinic never asked for a release or anything. Things done outside a physical exam and x-rays surprised me. I remember another horse I sold and dropped off at a clinic for a PPE and I had to sign all kinds of things for the PPE vet as the owner. In this case, there was nothing.
                            Asking like the others, what was invasive?
                            Scoping? Biopsy of a lump? They had to shave some parts to ultrasound? Removing shoes to take X-Rays? Endoscopy?

                            Did it troubled the horse in any way?


                            ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                            Originally posted by LauraKY
                            I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
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                            • #15
                              our vet will ask before using tranq (to xray), or before blocking a foot (although we haven't done that...at that point I am not interested). I would also expect to be asked before the horse is scoped.

                              I did have a vet come to do a PPE and he ALWAYS tranqs to xray, which surprised me. I was present to give the ok, but I think he just assumes that tranquing for xrays is the norm and we should expect it.
                              Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by CHT View Post

                                I did have a vet come to do a PPE and he ALWAYS tranqs to xray, which surprised me. I was present to give the ok, but I think he just assumes that tranquing for xrays is the norm and we should expect it.
                                I would not approve to have the horse tranq'd for x-rays just because. I just had my OTTB's front hooves (5 views each hoof) and neck x-rayed (6 shots). No tranqs. Finnegan had his back and hocks done in June. No tranqs. My QH, Sonny had plenty of ultrasounds and x-rays done without tranqs. If the vet gave a good college try at x-raying with no tranq and the horse wasn't cooperating then okay. But not just because he tranqs them all and that is default.



                                Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I've always been present (or my agent) when selling, and there has always been an agent of the seller present when I've purchased so obtaining consent ahead of time was never an issue.

                                  My vet almost-always tranqs for the x-ray/ultrasound part and I've never had a seller take issue with that. Thankfully, I've never had to scope a horse at the PPE, but I've certainly been prepared to do so if something was heard in the clinical or on the exertion test after riding. We always take a decent amount of blood (CBC/Chem panel, Drug Screen, Lyme, EPM, Coggins), but they've got plenty

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