Disrespectful Horse - WWYD

[HealingHeart]

Perhaps she is ready to be a broodmare and away from people as much as possible. Sorry for only 1/2 the joy (good ride) you are expecting, but you seem to be a pretty patience person.

[Thomas_1]

A bad tempered mare is in my opinion not a good prospect for a brood mare.... not at all!

[goeslikestink]

Does she live out all the time? If mine act like that ( won't let me catch them) then no feed, no hay and dump their water and shut the doors to a run out of possible. After a day of that she will most likely be more than happy to come in. I won't go and get them. All mine have learned to come to the gate or tough. Please don't jump all over me for this. It has worked for me and I think it is part of respect if you are lacking it with the mentality " Everything you have comes from me, your food, water and life. I am the boss. Period."

echo this

[summerhorse]

A bad tempered mare is in my opinion not a good prospect for a brood mare.... not at all!

Definitely not! Why make more bad tempered horses??

I have a red head who sometimes wants to try to pass the bossing around down to me. If she does that I drive her away with the lunge whip or whatever the heck I can pick up and throw at her (not to hit her of course!!). Anytime she wants to come close I drive her away. Eventually I let her come closer and when she's contrite and ASKING to come up (they really do that!) then she'll get petted or fed or whatever. This is exactly what the alpha mare (or horse) will do. That is what they understand.

I would not ever withhold water from a horse though. Besides being risky the horse is not going to understand that! You bring food but water is just "there" even if you are the one turning on the faucet or hauling the buckets

[creseida]

Perhaps she is ready to be a broodmare and away from people as much as possible. Sorry for only 1/2 the joy (good ride) you are expecting, but you seem to be a pretty patience person.

Um.... NO.

Just because she has a uterus doesn't mean she's breeding material. There are THREE important factors that a horse should possess before it should even be considered for breeding stock: Conformation, Talent, and TEMPERAMENT. If it doesn't have all three, or have such phenomenal talent to overcome a conformational flaw, it doesn't belong in the breeding shed, period. The last thing this world needs is another rank horse.

[sdlbredfan]

Edited to add, now that I have read the rest of the thread, that is good that had a Vet out to check for cystic ovaries or other hormonal condition that causes aggressive behavior. The next time you catch her, do some ground work in a smaller area in which she is rewarded for coming up to you politely, and is swatted on the butt or made to work at a faster speed than she already is at, if she turns her butt to you.

I particularly agree that is it best to assume ulcers even if that seems impossible. Especially when I read that she has recently moved to another stable, that stressor in and of itself could worsen an existing one.

[LauraKY]

Sounds like a combination of problems. Maybe a pain issue like ulcers or back. Definitely a respect issue.

Remember, every time you interact with a horse, it is learning experience. It's up to you to make it the lesson you want to teach.

We just don't put up with anything. If horsie misbehaves going into his stall, he does it over and over again until he gets it right. Some horses it takes one day, some much longer. Same with running off when released in the pasture. In that case, they go on the lunge line for a lesson, then we try again. Pinning ears? No food until the ears aren't pinned. You do have to take the time to retrain them. Sometimes it will take a chunk of your day. Each time you let them get away with a bad behavior, you're reinforcing it. Trust me, if there is nothing physical going on, they will learn to behave. But, you MUST rule out the physical.

[eclipse]

My last mare was an alpha mare and after ruling out ulcers, pain etc it was put down to her learning manners and that she had to respect ME as the alpha! When I first got her she really tested me when I brought her in one day by rearing up until I had to let go, and turning her hind end as if too double barrel me! Scared me good, so I decided that no way was I going to put up with that so for the next few weeks in she came with me carrying a lunge whip.

I only had to use it twice and she learnt that I meant business and she was quite pleasant after that. Basically, she just didn't want to leave the rest of the herd and was trying anything to get away but soon realized that I wasn't going to put up with it! Now to catch her, for as long as I had her (10 years) I always had to catch her with a bucket of food or else I'd be out there all day with her just trotting out of reach!!

She also learnt that she couldn't pull any stunts when I was turning her out either or that meant a quick turnaround and a day spent inside the barn! I also didn't allow her to just be unclipped at the gate and be allowed to gallop off, as she'd buck and run full tilt away. She had to enter the field, turn her back to the field and stand there calmly while I undid the lead rope and halter, all the time facing ME! It took some time but she did learn to be mannerly...but she's still very dominant but safe (so I hear from her new owner!)

[MLD]

Ah, redheaded mares. They can test you sorely.
I had a red headed gelding who would do the run from me routine. (He wouldn't try to nail me though, we had set that boundary long before, and geldings generally aren't as fiesty as a mare.)
But as far as the running went, I had him in a smaller paddock when he did it. Great fun for him.
Well, I chased him, ran him back and forth at a gallop until the fun went to work then to 'hey, can we talk about this?'
He never did it again.
A large field won't work for that, has to be a smaller one. Smack her butt when she threatens you and run her off. Keep at it each time she gives you crap until she decides she is ready to see things your way. Don't let her come to you until she's respectful again.
Just be careful of those back legs.
The smart ones will do that once or maybe twice, then won't do it again.

THIS! I had a yearling that wouldn't let me catch him. So one day, wearing my running shoes and armed with a lung whip I turned him out in a smaller paddock. I let him play and be out there for a little while before I went in with halter and lung whip to catch him. Sure enough, he tried to run from me. I told him "Fine, if you want to run, then you will get to run until I decide you get to stop". I ran him around that paddock. I would let him stop periodically just to see if he would turn and face me in a respectful way. When he finally did and I was able to walk up to him and catch him, then he got to stop and go in to his grain and hay in his stall, not treats out in the paddock. He never ran again when I tried to catch him.

[Foxtrot's]

I must be the sole dissenter to Penywell's method....an invitation to colic. Also, she just happens to be a chestnut. That is not why she has no manners. Meh,
it is just the internet. The only grumpy horses I have ever had were not feeling 100%, and the ones with poor and pushy manners were more the insensitive type and had to be taught some.

[mp]

I must be the sole dissenter to Penywell's method....an invitation to colic. Also, she just happens to be a chestnut. That is not why she has no manners. Meh,
it is just the internet. The only grumpy horses I have ever had were not feeling 100%, and the ones with poor and pushy manners were more the insensitive type and had to be taught some.

Oh, you're not.

I suggested treating for ulcers (usually gets results within two or three days, if that's the problem) and clicker training, if it's behavioral. I just don't see any point in picking a fight with a grumpy horse if you don't have to. And most mares (chestnut or otherwise) will do anything for food.

[goeslikestink]

So let's discuss my mare because I had a very frustrating and upsetting experience yesterday, and I need advice. The mare is 10 years old (I've had her since she was 3 - can only blame myself for her poor ground manners), redheaded, stubborn and opinionated. She has always had a sour attitude - pinning ears back constantly, turning and trying to bite when groomed or tacked, etc.

Well yesterday I attempted to halter the Princess in the field and go for a nice ride to enjoy the perfect weather Virginia has been having. Sounds great, right? Instead I spent an hour walking around the pasture while psycho mare galloped in circles avoiding me. Now she has pulled this stunt in the past and typically she'll quickly exhaust her energy reserves (she's an overweight air fern)... but not today.

Whenever I would approach her, she would swing her butt around, pin her mule ears back and walk/trot/gallop off. At one point, she actually started backing up toward me and humping her back like she was prepping to double barrel kick me. I very loudly growled at her but stepped out of the way because I was alone on the property and was not interested in an ambulance ride. Although grumpy is her normal mood of choice, I've never seen her act this aggressive and disrespectful. I'm talking ears flat against the head, snaking her neck and looking as though she would love nothing more than to just plow through me at mach speed.

So what would you do with a horse like this? Several trainers who I respect have attempted to correct her poor ground manners without any real success. She's a pretty fun horse under saddle most of the time and I've learned to adapt to her quirks. We tack up in the stall (she pulls crossties out of the wall) and she earns a smack whenever any nip or bite is attempted during grooming or tacking. Buuuuut I'm also trying to sell her in the not-so-distant future and don't want her ground manners getting any worse.

Thoughts, advice, stories, words of wisdom, etc.?

you made her that way as you have her since she was three and shes got your no shes whats deemed as a spolit horse

so what to do-- change your atttitude towards her you s what to do with a dispectful horse --- urm no mate its you that doesnt respect her that shes is a horse and your are a human
so now you have got to undo all that you done

dont reward with sweets and treats as this will make a bad behaviour tens times worse
find atrianer tha can help you re trian her with ground manners preferable would be a driving instructor as they would put her on long lines and re educate the ground issues you have
stop all grian and feed her hay only as this will cam her down and not be so bouslhy towards you,
put a head collar on her with a bit of baling twine the lenght of your own hand so a- she doesnt trip or catch it when grazzing and b- you can grab hold of it quicker to catch her

make a smaller area via plastic poles and elecy tape and small eneegensier and car or lorry battery so she has enough room to stretch out and eat her hay by herslef and can see oother horses in the same paddock as hers, but not in with them this will give her less room to run away in but more easily for you to retrian her in the catching deptpartment
also ctahc her up every day bring her in and groom her even if you dont ride her this is bonding to a horse and will instill trust in her brain
picking out her feet is also bonding in both grooming and picking out feet on a daily baisis isnt just bonding but rewarding the horse for a good behaviour in time the horse will learn to accept being caught and standing still

use your vioce and tones of voice dont talk nampy pamby baby stuff like coo coo ing ---- horses havent a clue waht your talking about and will confuse the horse by doing so
so change that staright off and mean business if its good use your higher pitch tones and tell her id she bad then tell her no so it comes across as NO

your horse obviously lunges at you and other people

so when shes in put a bar wooden bar up nose hieght in her stable
thus when shes in help to prevent the biting nipping but also gives the illusion the door is bigger , when you pull the bar out before you open the door say back the hrose should auto macally back away from the door
palce water hay and feed bowl at the front of the stable so it easy to get to
and when you enter say back and thorse should back away from you if she does not then get your mate the broom turn it uside dwon and enter the stable and tap the floor and say back and stand if shes doesnt then arm outstretch with the broom and repeat the horse should back away from you as you have create the illussion your bigger than she is

and at no point have you given a sweet or hit the horse

ither are other things you can do but you have a long way to go to undo what you have done
once you have masterd the horse and gained her respect of you then you can slowly re introduce feed if nessacary to a trial and error to her work load
whilse of the grub look into what feeds have what in them and supplements and learn about it all as more than liekly you are feeding your horse with laods of high energy feedstuffs and making her liek a ticking time bomb as she isnt getting the work warranted for the feed
so just feed her hay and turn her out
above all dont hesitate dont lack confidence and dont confuse the horse as they are all fear factors and the horse is flight and flee animal as soonas you create a doubt the horse will advade you

[Valentina_32926]

I also have a 10 yo mare - her issues were mainly under saddle and Regumate fixed that.

But my redhead also has acted aggressive on the ground - snapping teeth pinned ears (while being groomed). She's an Alpha mare want ta be.

As soon as she starts this I walk into the tack room and get the whip out. It is applied to her belly/muzzle the minute she starts threatening. She is NOT allowed to threaten me although I allow her to express discomfort (wrinkled nose, biting wood, etc.).

One thing I found the other day when she started acting aggressive was she did it when the true Alpha mare was near - so while grrroming I put her in a stitauion where she could not see ANY other horses except me - and all the aggression went away.

I think your problem may be a combination of hormones and her not acknowledging you as the lead mare. Start by getting vet to evaluate her hormone level (Chasteberry leaves helped a bit but the Regumate was a wonder drug) while at the same time establishing that YOU are thea led mare and she is not under ANY circumstances allowed to threaten you - a whip (Lunge whip for fields so you're out of kicking range) is you friend.

I'd start by working it in the stall - put her in a box stall, enter with whip (non-threatening) and the minute her butt is pointed towards you hit her as hard as you can - once. Stop and allow her to move her butt away. If she fails repeat until she no longer points the butt at you - then reward with cookie and pats.

She needs a boss mare - make it YOU!

[Pennywell Bay]

Well- I did not say that I do not give any water. I had one that did that in a field, a lush field. She stayed out for days with no grain and no hay but a tub of water. I dumped the water and would take her out a bucket when I would go to the gate. She would drink, if she would not let me get her the water left with me. She was in perfect health, it was a respect issue. I had one that a boarder that was a rank yearling. It treated her owner like that but I do not tolerate being kicked at when I go in to dump buckets or catch it. So I did the same thing. Gave her enough water so she did not colic but no way she was going to be comfy cozy while swinging her butt at me and trying to take shots. And hers was not fear or pain- she was a witch. She did a total turn around and is now a perfectly behaved girl. Just what worked with me. If health issues are ruled out, it is most likely behavioral. I love my horses and my boarders but horses are animals and must respect me. I won't tolerate rude or nasty horses. They don't come to me because I give them treats or cuddle them because one day, they won't want the treat or to be cuddled and then they won't come. I train police dogs and S&R dogs and it is the same principle. I am certain I will get a lot of heat for this- I love the dogs I train , but they obey because I tell them to, not because they "want" to. Because some day they may not "want" to - then what. Flamesuit zipped I guess.

[Gandolph58]

Well- . They don't come to me because I give them treats or cuddle them because one day, they won't want the treat or to be cuddled and then they won't come. I train police dogs and S&R dogs and it is the same principle. I am certain I will get a lot of heat for this- I love the dogs I train , but they obey because I tell them to, not because they "want" to. Because some day they may not "want" to - then want. Flamesuit zipped I guess.

When it comes to training dogs and horses I agree with this 100%. Hell I feel this way about most kids

[CB/TB]

My friend's horse( a sister to my mare) was a horror show. She bred the mare , so has owned her forever. She's 17 now. It was a definite respect issue on her part- to the tune of broken bones- on the ground, no less. After a less than stellar several years with a great instructor,, not so good trainer, my friend moved her to a better home and trainer. They started from scratch, right from leading, halting, stay out of my space, . It took a long time, lots of work, but she has finally been able to do a dressage test, we went on a few trail rides and her brain has finally kicked into work mode. She gets NO treats from hand, ever,at all, NADA. So, maybe start her as if sshe's never been touched- ruling out any medical problems first. this mare is being treated for ulcers, but the respect problem had been ongoing. My friend has a theory that the mare never really learned the pecking order of herd dynamics. She and her mom were in a small group of mares( Aunties) who just fawned over the baby, let her get away with everything, never disciplined her. She grew up believing she was a princess who just did what she pleased, which included getting from point A to B running right over you. NO more. She has completly changed for the better.

[rmh_rider]

Spot on PenneyWell Bay.

Ditto she said.

This should have been nipped in the bud the minute got her. Your own admission.

I would remove her off of all soy. Been there done that feeding equipride now. Explosive behavior, poof, gone.


Broodmare prospect, no way, unless you want to make MORE of that behavior. Bad genes there. That nasty behavior will be taught to her foal right away. Maybe your mare's momma was the same? Probably. Nobody likes an alpha horse. It is sad and dangerous to see them acting nasty to others. At my place, alpha's live a life in their own pasture. Alpha's make more alpha's.

good luck, don't get hurt.

[kyredhed]

I hate a horse like that! They can get you killed! It sounds like to me it totally disrespects you! It has found out over the years that it is Bigger and Badder than you.
I would put this horse in the round pen and work it everyday for a month! And no treats...
As for the pulling back on the ties... get one with the release thing on the end of it. They pull and it releases just a small amount at a time. And last but not least tie her butt in the barn and make her stand there for several hours. (amish are noted for doing this)
My horse was a nasty little filly at one time. Took me a lot of hard work and patience to make a good horse out her, but it paid off. Oh and by the way I am redheaded! lol

[Jaegermonster]

She sounds like an alpha mare who does not know her place in the pecking order. If my horse turned a rump to me and started backing up, I'd bring a lunge whip out with me.

Then, whenever you get her in a halter and in the barn, start every day with a groundwork lesson. Tacking up in the stall, do not permit disrespect.

And every time you interact, demand respect. No snaking head and snapping teeth, no pinned ears.

If necessary, become a "banshee", as a trainer friend of mine calls it.

Disrespect is dangerous.

BUT BE SURE TO REWARD ANY BIT OF GOOD BEHAVIOR!!



Loretta

exactly. ANy time she turned her butt to me I would wear her out with that longe whip. Even if it took me all day to catch her. And I would not let her stop and rest until she was caught either. Keep her moving and stay on the outside of her to redirect her in the general direction you want to go, and wear her out anytime she turns her butt.
And the same in the stall, permit absolutely no ear pinning, butt turning or other equine bird shooting under any circumstances.
But do pay attention so she doesn't get you penned up.

[Cindyg]

I want to ditto the advice for clicker training.

My gelding is grumpy by nature, and, years ago, was very hard to catch.

For years now, I have given him a click and a treat every single time he comes to my outstretched hand, every single time he slips his head into his halter, and every single time he willingly puts his head in his bridle. Without fail, these are free-treat moments for him, and he never misses.

But that's kind of a long-term approach.

For the shorter term, I'd move into a round pen or whatever small pen you have access to. I'd let her run from me until she was exausted. I'd smack the ground just behind her butt (or smack her butt) if she turns her back side to me. But every time she so much as flicks an ear in your direction, I'd click and give her a treat*.

At the same time you do that click, put your whip in an "at ease" position, and put your body in an "at ease" position. You can even turn away from her or back up.

The point is that you're telling her if she'll quit running from you, you'll quit chasing her.

If you can't get close enough to her, at first, to give her the treat, drop it in a bucket and back away.

In time, she will be just as pleased as my grumpy gelding is to come to my outstretched hand or to push his nose into his halter for a treat. I always laugh when I read about people hiding the halter behind their back to catch a horse because I hold mine out.

*If you want to do clicker training, you'll need to introduce her to what the click means. This is not the exercise to do that. But it would only take a few moments to teach that prerequisite.