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Saddlebred show on USEF

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  • Original Poster
    #41
    Wow, he's beautiful
    • 1 like

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    • #42
      Isn't he?! As he's getting older and a gelding I keep wanting to suggest to the Qatari guy and Jan Tops that when he retires they should give him to me
      Let me apologize in advance.

      Comment

      • #43
        Originally posted by allons-y View Post
        This is why I wondered
        Some trainers do cut tails before turnout and sell to make a switch, especially when a show horse retires. But these are lesson horses or low level show horses. Most have turnout and owner/barn doesn't want to deal with keeping the tail up year round. If they go to a show where horse is judged it is to easy to hang a switch, but most of these horses are regular academy/gaited lesson horses.
        "Anyone who tries to make brownies without butter should be arrested." Ina Garten
        • 1 like

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        • Original Poster
          #44
          OK thank you. Maybe thats why the tails look chopped off.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by allons-y View Post
            my goodness gracious people, heres the link. Lots of nice horses, even a Fresian. but 2 are head bobbing, some are inverted, many are tense, and some look like their tails were cut off at the hock https://www.usef.org/network/coverag...SaddleSeatInv/
            That was an equitation event. The RIDERS ONLY were being judged.Sometimes for these events, at least in past years, some or most of the horses had been loaned for use, and not all of them were routinely being shown. I see that others have already provided some of this same info, but I will go ahead and post this anyway. I saw one horse that appeared to have stringhalt, and one probably half-Arabian that was being forced to trot so fast he was sitting back on his haunches and flipping his front feet out in his best attempt at an extended trot.
            As to tails, some obviously have been set in the past, but I watched the first part (riders entering the ring) of 4 separate videos, and NONE of the horses was gingered or wearing a brace to keep the tail up. So, I am mystified as to just what OP was getting at with the tails comment. Every single one of those horses had full use of its tail.

            You might want to take time to read the Facebook page and become more aware of just what it was you were seeing: https://www.facebook.com/USASaddleSeatTeams/
            or https://www.usef.org/compete/resourc...sa-saddle-seat
            Jeanie
            RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.
            • 1 like

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            • Original Poster
              #46
              sdlbredfan, you might want to read for comprehension. Re tails, I simply noted some seemed chopped off. I was afraid of vandalism or something. You, and others, jumped to a false conclusion that I spoke of sets. Never did, just you and others. No need to be mystified by my tails comment, I saw short, cut tails, wondered what was up with that.

              Comment

              • Original Poster
                #47
                And re your comment that The RIDERS ONLY were being judged. Who cares about that? I said some horses looked lame, does who is being judged change that? Really, come on, lame is lame, whether the horse, the rider, the bridle, the dirt is being judged. Please keep up with the actual point to the OP.
                • 2 likes

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                • Original Poster
                  #48
                  OK. lets sum up. If I haven't been to an ASB barn, I can't tell if a horse is inverted or lame on a video. If I haven't been to ASB shows I can't see a tense horse or rider sitting on the loins in a video. If I knew anything some of those horses tails wouldn't look chopped off. If I knew that the riders only were being judged, the horses would look happy and relaxed in their work.

                  Really people? I used to hold you in high regard, now I'm puzzled and sad.
                  • 3 likes

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                  • #49
                    I will say many of the horses were showing faulty way of going whether rooting at the bit, anticipating gait changes, trying for what they think is the asked for stride length or headset, showing hitchyness, maybe some stringhalt, being fussy in their mouths...
                    These are young riders on strange horses - getting to know each other and work together on short notice. If you look at the horses, you will see plenty of ears cocked back with total focus on the rider (and this is unusual in Saddleseat; people like ears forward in the ring).

                    I think if you assembled a group of young Dressage, Hunt seat or Western riders and school horses and swapped them up, then sent them into the ring with their new partners it would look quite a bit like this and the horses would be 'rein lame,' wriggly, and offering moves that just don't look right.

                    Riding isn't always beautiful, but that doesn't mean it is badly done. Keeping a strange horse together can be quite a challenge.


                    As to the tails being shorter? I did see at least one tail that was still looped up in the ring.
                    Have you ever seen a school horse's tail after all the barn kids have groomed it and brushed it to death? Sometimes there is a well loved thin tail left. And some horse as they get older have less profuse hair growth in mane and tail.

                    Tail hair is just not vital in a class where riders are judged, anyway.
                    • 6 likes

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                    • Original Poster
                      #50
                      Yes I wondered if some were simply rein lame. I certainly didn't expect the venom and leaping to incorrect conclusions I saw here, though.
                      • 2 likes

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by allons-y View Post
                        OK. lets sum up. If I haven't been to an ASB barn, I can't tell if a horse is inverted or lame on a video. If I haven't been to ASB shows I can't see a tense horse or rider sitting on the loins in a video. If I knew anything some of those horses tails wouldn't look chopped off. If I knew that the riders only were being judged, the horses would look happy and relaxed in their work.

                        Really people? I used to hold you in high regard, now I'm puzzled and sad.
                        Sigh.
                        The horses are mostly inverted. It is the usual way of riding in a Saddleseat presentation. It is not 'natural' but neither is an overdone ramener on a dressage horse or most of the gait alterations in extended dressage trots; not even going to go into hunters or western. no, the horses are not 'relaxed', but yes, they are happy. You won't see relaxed in a reining exhibition or an upper level dressage test or a big jumper class either.

                        I am not dissenting that you can't see. It is your interpretation of what you think you see - that inversion is cruel, tension is bad, irregular steps always mean lameness(pain), short tails are bad,... and you take it from there...
                        • 7 likes

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                        • Original Poster
                          #52
                          In my work life, I deal with some absolutes, and some gut feelings. Ignoring the facts in front of you, galloping on regardless, would kill my patients. I am truly baffled by the wild, unhearing careening I saw on this thread.

                          The ability to sift data for meaningful trends is paramount to me and all medical professionals. I wish we could all be more mindful and logical, and simply see what is in front of us.
                          • 2 likes

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                          • Original Poster
                            #53
                            OK, Im done with you guys. You keep putting adjectives in my mouth, that I never said. Remember the old saying about arguing with a pig....
                            Last edited by allons-y; May. 16, 2017, 08:11 PM. Reason: typo
                            • 5 likes

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                            • #54
                              Others will not always agree with you. The world is shades of gray.
                              Todays facts become yesterdays incomplete or erroneous observations and conclusions.
                              Especially in the medical field.

                              Science builds on proof, not hearsay, coincidence or popular opinion.

                              Thank you for beginning a thread on Saddleseat and Saddlebreds, it is good to discuss my favorite breed and I wish you well and many years of enjoyment in your horse activities.
                              • 4 likes

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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by allons-y View Post
                                In my work life, I deal with some absolutes, and some gut feelings. Ignoring the facts in front of you, galloping on regardless, would kill my patients. I am truly baffled by the wild, unhearing careening I saw on this thread.

                                The ability to sift data for meaningful trends is paramount to me and all medical professionals. I wish we could all be more mindful and logical, and simply see what is in front of us.
                                I work in the medical field as well. However, my assessment of a patient could drastically differ from yours. As you know, your diagnosis and treatment plan can sometimes be heavily based on your own training, background, and types of patients you most commonly see.

                                My assessment of these horses in this video differs from yours because I own this breed and compete in saddle seat. As others have said, these are school horses. I actually know some of the trainers who provided these horses. Many horses are geriatric and one in the class I believe is a rescue. These kids came from all over the world to ride in this class with no practice prior to the class. From what I have heard, the international kids have trouble when the competition is in the US because the horses in their own country are trained a little differently than they are here. Needless to say, these kids are not helping the horses out at all. This is simply not a good class to make generalizations about the breed. All of the horses in the class are not even Saddlebreds.

                                You might consider watching some other videos of the breed at a different type of competition before passing such harsh judgement.
                                • 8 likes

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                                • #56
                                  Once upon a time it was considered proper for horses, be they hacks, hunters, working horses, or racehorses, to have their tails banged above the hock, as can be seen in many 18th-19th century paintings and photos. Even today in the UK show horses generaly have their tails shorter than their American counterparts.
                                  http://britishshowhorse.org/imagesMC...2013145444.JPG
                                  http://britishshowhorse.org/imagesMC...2013144317.jpg

                                  Saddleseat reflects older customs in terms of the rider's position (back on the horse vs. the "modern" forward seat) the tack used (a flat saddle and double bridle), and the horse and rider's turnout.
                                  • 4 likes

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                                  • #57
                                    I used to think saddleseat was so unnatural and bizarre. It just looked weird! But having moved to an area with many more involved in saddleseat, I see far less damage to their top horses than dressage or jumping or many of the western disciplines. Less strain on hocks than dressage, less stress on joints than jumping, and much less lameness than WP. They don't develop their muscles across the back in way I appreciate from classical dressage, but seeing them up close, it doesn't actually seem as hard on them as I'd imagined. I boarded at an ASB barn that had at least 3 schoolies that were retired show horses and they were in their late 20s, and in great health and not lame. So I realized that while I may think the inverted posture is awkward, I don't believe it's physically harming them. And of course, now I love the breed and want one in the future for dressage! And I even took some saddleseat lessons and went to two shows and had a blast! Not my chosen discipline, but I do value what I can learn from any discipline, and realize there is good and bad in any showing environment - anyone can start to put winning ahead of the horse! But there are many more good horsemen than bad in all disciplines.
                                    • 14 likes

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                                    • #58
                                      I have had to understand how to take my dressage self out of other disciplines. Yes, this thread was always going to entice issues, I'm sorry that didn't occur to you before starting this thread. It seems you are very very stressed from work, hope you can find ways to feel better~!
                                      • 1 like

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                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by allons-y View Post
                                        And re your comment that The RIDERS ONLY were being judged. Who cares about that? I said some horses looked lame, does who is being judged change that? Really, come on, lame is lame, whether the horse, the rider, the bridle, the dirt is being judged. Please keep up with the actual point to the OP.
                                        Yeah I choked on that comment about the horse being lame is ok because the class is judged on the rider. It should never be ok to show a lame horse.

                                        From my experience of owning one, just the one, I would not choose another asb as my all around horse. He tries so hard, but what a bundle of emotions. Always drama, always an issue. I dream of having another standardbred.
                                        • 3 likes

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                                        • #60
                                          Just for kicks, I picked a random 2nd level dressage test on you tube. First one I clicked on. Here's what I saw from my perspective. The horse looked bored, even unhappy- swished his tail quite often. The horses ears were never forward- in my world a horse that doesn't look forward with his ears most of the time isn't too thrilled with his job. Figure eight noseband- probably cranked tight- in the one close up of the horses face he didn't look particularly happy in the bridle. The riders hands, IMO, were horrible. They never stopped moving and bouncing. Ditto the rider's legs- it was constant bump,bump,bump into the horses sides. That poor horse.

                                          I don't know diddly about dressage. But I'm gonna bash it just because I had a bad day.
                                          • 11 likes

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