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How long is too long to make a horse in pain wait?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Garnet_Z View Post

    That was my thought as well. The pot belly and odd hair are symptoms of that, and horses with Cushing's are prone to laminitis. Cushing's is treatable.

    However, the shoulder injury sounds pretty bad. If it can't be diagnosed and fixed, I'd say it's time to euthanize. Horses are on their feet for so much of their lives, and being in constant pain is no way to live.
    Sorry, tried to edit my post and didn't mean to double post.

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    • #22
      I agree with everything that's been said on here and have nothing to add except to ask how on Earth a horse could step in a beaver hole? Is there a pond in his pasture or maybe she's actually thinking of a gopher? Not that it matters, just curious.
      • 5 likes

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post

        What diagnostics did the Vet offer or do, and what diagnostics did the owner ask Vet to do? WRT the shoulder [which happened how long ago?] and the other issues?
        And aside, he stepped in a beaver hole?

        second bold what is 'staring'?
        Did she do testing for cushings? IR? What does the mini eat? The struggling with weight on forelegs makes one wonder about laminitis....

        23 really isn't old...
        23 is young for a mini. This is simply an issue of neglect, plain and simple.

        Euthanasia might be appropriate because of the shoulder injury but everything else is just plain old bad owner. And I say that as a fairly conservative horse owner; I am not a "get the vet out" for every nick and scratch. But a pot-bellied and ribby mini? Lack of food and/or medical attention (teeth, worms, Cushings) are pretty obvious guesses. They live on almost nothing, so I'm going with Cushings.

        (My mini is a very spry 26. I have been warned that 40 is not unheard of for a well-bred and well-cared for mini. I expect her to outlive all my other horses.)
        • 2 likes

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        • #24
          Originally posted by S1969 View Post

          23 is young for a mini. This is simply an issue of neglect, plain and simple.

          Euthanasia might be appropriate because of the shoulder injury but everything else is just plain old bad owner. And I say that as a fairly conservative horse owner; I am not a "get the vet out" for every nick and scratch. But a pot-bellied and ribby mini? Lack of food and/or medical attention (teeth, worms, Cushings) are pretty obvious guesses. They live on almost nothing, so I'm going with Cushings.

          (My mini is a very spry 26. I have been warned that 40 is not unheard of for a well-bred and well-cared for mini. I expect her to outlive all my other horses.)
          Agreed. I wonder if the shoulder could be 'out' in some way? [see how poor my equine anatomy is?]

          Seems like had a few simple things been looked into this mini might not be in such dire straits... and maybe he's not, who knows. How sad if he could have not suffered these few months if it's something fairly simple to resolve?
          I sure hope that the owner gets a Vet out, looks into a few things and does the right thing for the poor thing.
          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

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          • #25
            When I first read the title, I immediately thought 5 minutes is too long. Suffering from chronic pain myself makes me more sympathetic to my patients. I try to "read the room" when I am thinking euthanasia. It's always on my list of treatments when I think it is appropriate. I have plenty of clients bring it up when I don't think it's the only, or even best, option. Sometimes the pocketbook has to rule the room too. But there are definitely times when I flat out say, you must think about your pet's suffering and euthanasia is our best option. Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't.

            I'm sorry some think that vets don't think about animals' suffering, because it's a very big thing with us. Pain management is a HUGE deal, with many new options being discussed. I've taken 6 week continuing education courses on just that. I agree that sometimes in vet school they do things just to see if they can do it, and that is not always a good thing. I hate to sound crass, but that is how we learn so we can help you, as clients, in the future.
            • 8 likes

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            • Original Poster
              #26
              Thanks for all the comments. They are really helpful. Someone asked what I meant by his coat being "staring." You know how a healthy coat of hair will all lie in
              the same direction so you don't really see the individual hairs? A coat that is staring shows each individual hair going in a slightly different direction and the hairs don't lay down. The hair also looks dry and dull.

              We talked about the mini over lunch last week. I told her that the appearance of his hair could be a mini "thing" but in that case she needs to address the problem of him being so skinny you can count his ribs. I asked when the last time she had his teeth floated and she admitted it was a long time. He looked to me like he was having trouble chewing. by holding his nose out and his jaw moving sideways as well as up and down as he chewed. She agreed to have the vet check his teeth when he came out and also his manure to see if he had worms.

              About Cushings disease? Doesn't it cause a cresty neck? This mini has a nice normal neck. What are other symptoms of cushings?

              Also she said she had watched the mini walking around in his pasture and it was more normal, though still limping. She said there was gravel in the barn corridor and that's why he was hobbling.

              I'll keep after her about getting a vet out. I hope she does it over this weekend.

              Thanks again for your help.

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              • #27
                Cushings: our Cushings pony was underweight to the point of having a slightly ewe-necked appearance . So a cresty neck is not always part of it. Since you asked.
                No matter where you go, there you are
                • 5 likes

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                • #28
                  I'm hung up on the vet just saying "I don't know what's wrong" (other than in a situation like my dog is in at the moment, where unfortunately the candidate is a disease that's strictly an elimination diagnosis so it's more "I don't know what's wrong and there's no test we can do, so we're going to try X and if it doesn't help we'll know it's not Y and go from there and try Z") and not suggesting a second opinion. I would say it's not time unless you've consulted another vet and found out if there' something treatable the first vet isn't familiar with.
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                  • Original Poster
                    #29
                    Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                    I'm hung up on the vet just saying "I don't know what's wrong" (other than in a situation like my dog is in at the moment, where unfortunately the candidate is a disease that's strictly an elimination diagnosis so it's more "I don't know what's wrong and there's no test we can do, so we're going to try X and if it doesn't help we'll know it's not Y and go from there and try Z") and not suggesting a second opinion. I would say it's not time unless you've consulted another vet and found out if there' something treatable the first vet isn't familiar with.
                    I agree. I've found an equine vet in her neighborhood who specializes in minis, but I'm not the boss of her. I'm praying she gets this pitiful animal the help he deserves.

                    • 3 likes

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                    • #30
                      Better a day early than a minute too late...poor mini. Personally, I couldn't bare to see him in such pain and distress if he were mine. As a prey animal, horses try to keep their pain hidden, so he must be in more pain than I can imagine.
                      The greatest gift you can ever give is taking their pain away and making it your own. Wear that pain like a tribute to the love you shared. Laurierace
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                      • #31
                        As someone that works in the veterinary industry, I would be willing to bet that "vet doesn't know what's wrong" is code for "vet can't diagnose the issue without rads/US/etc., and owner is unwilling to pursue further diagnostics. I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the "vet is wrong" bandwagon, personally. It's also highly likely that the vet discussed quality of life as being more worthy of attention and discussion than diagnostics for the unsoundness, which sounds like a very small part of the greater picture with this horse. It's time to have a serious talk with your friend, or hope that the next vet can reinforce the idea of euthanasia as the kindest option here.

                        In response to your Cushing's question, more often than not, a long hair coat is the first thing owners notice. An ACTH test can confirm, and pergolide/prascend can be prescribed to manage the condition. Many horses with Cushing's also have EMS, which can cause the appearance of a cresty neck due to the horse being overweight, but not all Cushing's horses have EMS.
                        • 8 likes

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                        • Original Poster
                          #32
                          Originally posted by equiniphile View Post
                          As someone that works in the veterinary industry, I would be willing to bet that "vet doesn't know what's wrong" is code for "vet can't diagnose the issue without rads/US/etc., and owner is unwilling to pursue further diagnostics. I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the "vet is wrong" bandwagon, personally. It's also highly likely that the vet discussed quality of life as being more worthy of attention and discussion than diagnostics for the unsoundness, which sounds like a very small part of the greater picture with this horse. It's time to have a serious talk with your friend, or hope that the next vet can reinforce the idea of euthanasia as the kindest option here.

                          In response to your Cushing's question, more often than not, a long hair coat is the first thing owners notice. An ACTH test can confirm, and pergolide/prascend can be prescribed to manage the condition. Many horses with Cushing's also have EMS, which can cause the appearance of a cresty neck due to the horse being overweight, but not all Cushing's horses have EMS.
                          Thank you for explaining about Cushings.

                          • 1 like

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Frosty M View Post

                            I agree. I've found an equine vet in her neighborhood who specializes in minis, but I'm not the boss of her. I'm praying she gets this pitiful animal the help he deserves.
                            If she does not either fix, or end the suffering, call Animal Control!
                            Jeanie
                            RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.
                            • 2 likes

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by paulosey View Post
                              Better a day early than a minute too late...poor mini. Personally, I couldn't bare to see him in such pain and distress if he were mine. As a prey animal, horses try to keep their pain hidden, so he must be in more pain than I can imagine.
                              Exactly!
                              Jeanie
                              RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.
                              • 1 like

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by equiniphile View Post
                                As someone that works in the veterinary industry, I would be willing to bet that "vet doesn't know what's wrong" is code for "vet can't diagnose the issue without rads/US/etc., and owner is unwilling to pursue further diagnostics. I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the "vet is wrong" bandwagon, personally. It's also highly likely that the vet discussed quality of life as being more worthy of attention and discussion than diagnostics for the unsoundness, which sounds like a very small part of the greater picture with this horse. It's time to have a serious talk with your friend, or hope that the next vet can reinforce the idea of euthanasia as the kindest option here.

                                In response to your Cushing's question, more often than not, a long hair coat is the first thing owners notice. An ACTH test can confirm, and pergolide/prascend can be prescribed to manage the condition. Many horses with Cushing's also have EMS, which can cause the appearance of a cresty neck due to the horse being overweight, but not all Cushing's horses have EMS.
                                Yes I agree with everything here.

                                As for coat - I agree, if Cushings it can be the reason for the unusual coat pattern. My small pony with Cushings has a weird coat. But this time of year - both my mini and my pony have weird coats; my mini is a yak in the winter and it is a process for it to fully shed. They both look pretty good in summer, though.

                                Minis often have terrible teeth. My vet recently told me that they saw a mini with two rows of teeth, top and bottom! Yikes! They often need more dental care than regular horses, so I am betting that this mini might have some major issues inside her mouth.

                                • 1 like

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                                • #36
                                  Sweet bejayzus, high time for your friend to put on her big girl panties.
                                  • 5 likes

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Frosty M View Post
                                    I talked to her and it hadn't occurred to her to get a second opinion, either.. She's working on getting another vet now.
                                    He's already on bute, but it's not helpimg. Hopefully better days are ahead for sweet little mini.

                                    Thanks for your advice. It really helped. I'll keep you posted. Meanwhile. what kind of person are you? A person who do not want to be a minute too late or one who does not want to be a minute too early, and why?
                                    FYI, bute is really not good for miniature horses. It's super easy to overdose them and cause all sorts of problems. Some friends of mine found that out the hard way last year with a similar story to this (first vet mis-diagnosed injury and the bute pretty much did the poor little guy in). Hopefully your friend will see the vet you found that is experienced with minis. I would want a proper diagnosis of the injury before putting him down. If it truly is a mystery injury and he's not getting any better than euthanasia does sound like the best option. As far as the skinny/wormy look....I have a mini/small pony that looked horrible coming out of winter last year. So bad I thought I would have to put him down. Did a Panacur Power Pak (cheap with a mini) and he looked great within a few weeks. I had been deworming him but was just using the wrong type.
                                    Crayola Posse - Pine Green
                                    Whinnie Pine (June 4, 1977 - April 29, 2008)
                                    Autumn Caper (April 27, 1989 - May 24, 2015)
                                    Murphy (April 28, 1994 - May 5, 2017)

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Frosty M View Post
                                      She thinks the fact that he cheers up for five minutes while he's eating his food makes it worth while.


                                      What would you do?
                                      Per one of the vets at UC Davis who helped write the paper on euthanasia how it should be done and when it's appropriate, if you wait until they stop eating, you waited too long.

                                      What would I do? I'd tell her she needs to put the horse down, if she wouldn't listen, I'd probably end the friendship. No probably about it really, I'm not friends with people who do things like that, it means our core values are different. Good luck.

                                      • 5 likes

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                                      • #39
                                        Quelah, I need that article. Do you know how I can find it? I have a horse with squamous cell carcinoma in his sheath. This is proving to be a hard one.
                                        www.ncsporthorse.com

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                                        • #40
                                          Darn it. When I saw this thread with new posts I was hoping for an update from the second opinion vet.
                                          • 3 likes

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