The joy of conflicting opinions/advice

[Tif_Ann]

OK ... great COTH minds ... help 2.5 months ago I took in the local equivalent of a "Craigs List" horse (we have very few on craigs list here, they are all on the free local news channel's classifieds). Coming 5, not halter broke, QH mare. We had to back her off the trailer because she had absolutely no idea how to move forward with a lead and halter on, and she backs up when scared and has reared a couple times.

She's come a long way in 2.5 months - halter broke, leads, ties, picks her feet up, I can touch her all over, got her in a stall, walk down small spaces, got her in the wash rack, can run the water near her and has tolerated water on her feet, taught her to lunge and free lunge w/t/c both ways (still not perfectly calm and we have some fights, but she does it and knows the cues), and has been backed, 17 rides on her so far, w/t mostly, has tackled ground poles and even popped over a couple cross rails. *Whew* that's a lot!

Anyway ... one thing we have worked on teaching her is forward. If something is scary, you can move, but you need to move forward - not back up, not rear, move forward. Several other boarders, and our barn owner, have said this is the right thing to do. For example the battle I chose today was working on fly spray. She's still scared of the fly spray bottle. I had her on a lead, let her smell the bottle, praised her for calm, and then moved the bottle back towards her body. She gets scared, moves forward and around me, I keep the bottle moving with her until she stops and relaxes and tolerates it and then release the pressure and praise her. It takes a bit, several circles around me (more of a releasing the haunches, she keeps her head with me, moves her butt around), but she does eventually relax. I worked one side until I could rub her all over with the bottle and she stood still. Then switched to the other side.

Anyway ... while I'm doing this, another boarder was riding in the arena. She was married to/worked with a trainer for several years, and her background is in cutting and reining horses. Her 2 yr old is in cutting training with a BNT right now. She made the comment that I should NOT let her move forward like that, because it was teaching her to "run through pressure", and she should just stand still. Told me to tie her (something discouraged by the barn owner because she is still so spooky about the bottle - afraid she's going to get hurt if she can't move) or make her stand next to a wall so she can't move forward.

I'm a little confused, but also don't want to teach her to "run through pressure" ... so can anyone elaborate or want to share their opinions? My sister and I have started several horses now, and we're following the exact same methods we have with all of them - all of whom stand quietly for fly spray, water hoses, tie for hours if needed, basically have good ground manners. I'm often complimented on how well mannered my other horse is and I've been asked to work with other horses with ground manner problems before. So ... our way SEEMS to work, but I also don't want to do something wrong.

Is this a difference between english and western training methods (though at this stage I can't say that we're doing "english" specific training ... it's ground manners, desensitizing, and w/t under saddle, sheesh)? Just wondering what the COTH consensus on desensitizing is.

[sketcher]

It doesn't sound like for this particular horse tying would be the right answer.

If she is really afraid of the bottle you could teach her to break the tie. Why ask for trouble?

If you had been in possession of her as a weanling and had the ability to teach her to tie the way the other woman describes, then tying her and expecting her to stand when you sprayed her would be a viable training method. Presumably she would have already learned to respect the tie very well and would accept that limit even if a little nervous of the bottle. Your mare will not have the benefit of that background.

[sdlbredfan]

You are and were right. The other boarder is obviously well intentioned but does not fully understand the issues the filly has. You do understand, and are doing the right thing. Definitely do not tie her. Actually, I have one other suggestion with regard to the fly spray. If you are spraying while she is moving, stop. Since she is not happy about the fly spray, that only tells her, in this case, that forward = get squirted, if I did understand correctly how you are timing that. Only spray when she is standing still, and you might even want to offer her a piece of carrot with one hand whilst spraying with other? (I am sorry if I misread or misunderstood how that is actually being done.) Similarly, if she thinks that the fly spray is chasing her, that does not truly reinforce the forward issue. In this case, they seem to be 2 different things, IMO.

[Tif_Ann]

Thanks - and ultimately, yes, she needs to get to the point where she stands quietly, tied, and I can spray her. All our other horses do ... they didn't start that way though!

She has a great mind typically, just a couple holdouts for the "OMG WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO ME!" reaction. My barn owner actually vented last week watching me work on this about what a shame it is that people breed and then just ignore them. All of this stuff would have been so easy as a weanling - her comment was that if the breeder/owner I bought her from had spent just a little bit of time on her it would have made her life so much easier, instead here we are at nearly 5 having to introduce her to all this.

I just want to make sure I'm doing it right, but ALSO try to understand where the other boarder is coming from.

[Ajierene]

How you train a horse can depend a lot on the kind of horse you are training. If you are taking a horse that has been raised with manners/around people, then generally you can 'reprimand' more and be a bit more forceful. Techniques such as putting a horse against a wall may not work with alpha horses, either.

A horse that has had little human contact or has had a rough life will likely not handle being forced into things, such as being put against a wall. From the sounds of it, your horse will not do well with it either.

Continuing to work with her as you are. Hopefully, you are ending each session when she is relaxed and allowing you to proceed with whatever you are doing.

[Tif_Ann]

You are and were right. The other boarder is obviously well intentioned but does not fully understand the issues the filly has. You do understand, and are doing the right thing. Definitely do not tie her. Actually, I have one other suggestion with regard to the fly spray. If you are spraying while she is moving, stop. Since she is not happy about the fly spray, that only tells her, in this case, that forward = get squirted, if I did understand correctly how you are timing that. Only spray when she is standing still, and you might even want to offer her a piece of carrot with one hand whilst spraying with other? (I am sorry if I misread or misunderstood how that is actually being done.) Similarly, if she thinks that the fly spray is chasing her, that does not truly reinforce the forward issue. In this case, they seem to be 2 different things, IMO.

Thank you. I'm not actually spraying her at all yet. We're still at the "shake the bottle and it's going to eat me" stage. She gets lots of praise for letting me touch her with the bottle, will check out the bottle on the ground, will let me rub her with the bottle, but if it makes noise or I spray it she still freaks. I've always been taught to desensitize if something is scary, you keep the scare up until they stop reacting (safely, of course) and then reward them by removing the pressure/scare when the stop reacting/relax. There's obviously way more to that - but it's a basic desensitization method used by most of the cowboys and such around here.

Today I did wonder if I should try food as motivation - she's not a horribly food motivated horse but I was thinking maybe working on this with a bucket of grain in front of her might help mellow her.

[Tif_Ann]

Continuing to work with her as you are. Hopefully, you are ending each session when she is relaxed and allowing you to proceed with whatever you are doing.

Oh absolutely - I ended today taking it as a success that she stood quietly and let me rub her with the bottle, then put the bottle down, let her sniff it, etc., and we did some leading around the arena and I rubbed her down with my hands all over her body. I wanted to make sure all the tension we had built up was gone and she still knew I meant her no harm and wasn't going to hurt her.

[Twiliath]

Please look into clicker training with her so that you can avoid scaring her in the first place.

good luck to you and your project.

[Tif_Ann]

Please look into clicker training with her so that you can avoid scaring her in the first place.

good luck to you and your project.

Well ... question then. How does clicker training work differently? You reward for calmness (I rub, scratch, whatever - you click), then increase the pressure and reward for calmness again. I've seen so many recommendations to "look into clicker training" - and my question is a serious one - how does clicker training stop the "scary" reaction before it starts?

[Freebird!]

Differant strokes for differant folks. The way I like to train horses, is I like to get a feel for them - either in the stall, round pen, under saddle, or all three - and let them tell ME what works for them. I had one filly who was not only terrified of a spray bottle, but if I came near her with one, she would either try and attack me, or bolt. The way I dealt with her - a very spooky Arab X - was I put a soft rope halter and lead on her, and put her in a small paddock. I then stood on the outside of the fence, holding the lead rope, and a big spray bottle of water. Then I sprayed her, starting with her legs, for a loooong time. I let her run from side to side, but the paddock kept her from running too far backwards. Eventually she realized that nothing was going to eat her, and the water actually felt good. After that day she was fine about spray bottles.

It sounds like you have come a long way with her already, however I would be very careful about doing under saddle work with her, when there are so many loop holes in her ground work.

[Cherry]

Tif_Ann, it sounds as if you're using common sense to train this horse--that's never wrong....

I have this "thing" about clicker training--it seems like a good thing with dogs, but with horses I wonder about things like: what if the clicker breaks--OMG! What do I do then??? I guess I can't possibly train that day.... What on Earth did we do twenty years ago when clickers for animals didn't exist??? I like to think training doesn't depend on a little clicker thingy....

The person at your barn must live in Perfectville where horses never move, no matter what. I think your horse will get to that point and it would probably be helpful if you had another person to hold the horse while you tried to work with it, but if you don't have a helper it will just take you longer--that's all. Just keep working at it, one day it will all fall into place and your horse will finally stand still!

As far as motivating with food--most horses will stand and munch on hay all day long; it's good distraction strategy and ingenious training tool. And it's much cheaper than using grain and better for the horse in the long run....

Good luck, sounds like you're on the right path!

[Twiliath]

First, I use my tongue to make a click that sounds like a "clop" - my mouth opens down and my tongue folded over and "clicked" on the roof of my mouth. That way I don't have to worry about having to hold the clicker, lose it, forget it, or break it.

Second, clicker training is operant conditioning, scientifically based and thoroughly researched. It started with B.F. Skinner and has now progressed far beyond what he barely touched.

Third, to begin with your horse, first teach her to stand on a mat. Lots of us use a 2x2 square of plywood. Walk her toward it and click and treat for stepping near it or forward toward it. Eventually you will get two front feet on the mat. Then teach for duration.

Next, add the bottle. Hold it out so that she can sniff at it or even just reach to sniff at it. Click and treat. Build this up so that every time she sniffs it, you C/T. Hold it to one side, then the other, then up higher, then down lower. Click and treat every time she touches it with her nose. Make sure it's solid.

None of this will really take very long, but you must do it in small pieces. You can do several sessions a day, but make them short, 5-10 minutes. Carefully watch her body language - body, ears, eyes, nose, mouth, everything. As soon as she starts to tense up even a tiny bit, go back to an easier request, and then quit for that session.

Once she has it down that she gets C/T for touching it with her nose, try touching her shoulder with it. But be very careful that you're also watching her body language. If it looks like she's going to move away from the bottle, stop. click and treat her for standing still.

Do you see how this works? Just because you use pets, scratches, and some verbal praise such as "good girl" doesn't mean that SHE thinks that's a reward.

There are four quadrants in operant conditioning: +R, -R, -P, and +P. The + and - refer to the mathematical: adding or taking away. The R=reward. The P=punishment. You either want to increase the frequency of behavior or you want to decrease the frequency of behavior. Most people only use +P (hitting, for example) to decrease the likelihood of a behavior. -P would be the removal of an aversive, such as pressure. Taking the bottle away for example.

However, what motivates you more? Rewards? or Punishers?

So you want her to stand still when you bring the scary bottle near her. A +R is more motivating than either a -P (taking the bottle away) or a +P (hitting, tying, yelling, etc.). Since you want her to stand still and you want to increase the likelihood that she will stand still, teach her to stand still and reward a lot for that behavior. The clicker is a way to MARK the behavior you want and that you're rewarding for. The clicker (or other noise) is a bridging or marker signal telling the horse that a reward is coming.

Once you have taught her that the idea is to stand still, then add in the distraction of the bottle. It's actually more than a distraction, it's an aversive - it frightens her.

also teach her head down or the calm down cue. But either way, you need to have the basic behavior in place before you add in the bottle.

Rubbing her with the bottle is more aversive. Taking it away is removing the aversive.

There is a big difference between a horse that is either shut down or "accustomed" to something and horse that is clicker trained to stand still. We also teach our horses to "tough the goblins", that is to seek out and touch the scary things. Since they've been taught to touch things, and touch scary things, because there's a reward in it for them, they're not so scared and they seek out things to touch.

If you read Temple Grandin's latest book, "Animals Make Us Human," you'll notice that she talks about the SEEKING circuit and FEAR, RAGE, and PANIC circuits. when you're teaching in Clicker Training mode, you've got the horse in SEEKING mode. It's mind is engaged. It's not in the FEAR circuit. It's going to go into the PANIC circuit or the RAGE circuit.

When you just bring up the bottle and she runs from you, she's already in FEAR mode. She may eventually calm down and pet her, scratch her, and take the bottle away. She learns to acquiesce. But you've not turned on the SEEKING circuit. Her brain is not actively engaged.

I could spend all night trying to convince you, but you're just going to have to try it. Read up on it - there are several books out there - and try it. But you have to keep at it. Don't give up because you hit a snag. There's a learning curve to everything and that includes clicker training.

If a killer whale can be taught to stand up out of the water for 45 minutes to have its teeth worked on without sedatives or pain killers but through the careful, intelligent, educated use of clicker training, then why can't we use this technique on horses?

[Twiliath]

I need to amend what I said above.

Removing the spray bottle is -R - taking something away as a reward. However, it is still an aversive.

[cutemudhorse]

Freebird! How smart you were for working it out that you stayed safe!

Definately do not tie the horse. They will feel better (and ultimately braver eventually!) if they can move their feet. Try spraying the air around the horse first and letting her walk in a small circle if neccesary. When the feet stop, stop spraying the air --- ie "retreat" and reward her by giving her the relief she is looking for. Do NOT stop spraying when she is acting scared. Learn to feel what her fear level is and back off before it gets too high, thus building her confidence. But back off when she is beginning to relax at what you are trying to do with her. Reward the slightest 'try' on her part, as in her trying to be good/brave. After you can spray the air around her (use water at first) then try spraying her around her shoulder, or upper front leg. do the least sensitive areas first. But always back off immediately when she is good at first until she really relaxes. Don't keep trying but build her confidence in small steps. Approach and retreat works wonders!! Good luck!

[saultgirl]

Here is some reading for you.

http://www.aebc.com.au/articles

I think it's great that you are willing to take a step back and consider your training methods, and the methods of others. It will just put more tools in your tool box.

Sounds like you're doing great with your mare!

I would do as you originally posted - I would continue to use the spray until the horse stopped moving, and then stop. The release/reward is that the spray stops when the horse is standing still.

I think if you stop spraying you are doing when she moves away, you are teaching her to move away when you spray.

[Tif_Ann]

Here is some reading for you.

http://www.aebc.com.au/articles

I think it's great that you are willing to take a step back and consider your training methods, and the methods of others. It will just put more tools in your tool box.

Sounds like you're doing great with your mare!

I would do as you originally posted - I would continue to use the spray until the horse stopped moving, and then stop. The release/reward is that the spray stops when the horse is standing still.

I think if you stop spraying you are doing when she moves away, you are teaching her to move away when you spray.

Thanks, I'll check the link out. And just to clarify - I haven't even worked up to spraying yet - though eventually today she did let me spray one side of her body and stood quietly. She accepted 3 sprays and then started to get antsy and want to move again so we went back to pressure/release. All the moving forward, waiting for her to relax/stop and then stop the pressure is still at the "Shake the bottle" stage. I need to go pick up a cheap water bottle to do the "spray" training - much cheaper than using fly spray!

[goodhors]

With such scared horses, you have to leave them an opening so they don't panic. We leave the opening we WANT them to take, to prevent animal going in a direction we DON'T want them to use.

You don't want her running over you, charging the frightening fly spray because she can't escape anyplace else!! So you let her "escape" into a sideways direction, circling you instead. That is an acceptable direction for her in the fly spray situation.

You worked the fly spray opportunity, she got much improved! She calmed down because she COULD escape somewhat and she then got back into THINKING mode, wasn't killed with spray or handling, so could tolerate more. You are BUILDING a horse, one little block at a time. She has made a lot of her own, good or bad, choices to reach this age. She is not going to hand over decision making now, like a very young horse might in accepting new things.

It does sound like you have done a lot of forward yourself, in getting her accepting of much in the short time you have worked with her.

In training, putting pressure on the horse ALWAYS allows them an out. You endeavor to make the out their correct choice! In NO training that I would use, do you "Close ALL The Doors" so horse can't get away SOMEPLACE. In riding you may close a leg and rein on the same side, but the OTHER side is open, for him to move into, HE WINS! Repeat a few times and he has learned lateral movement and then you polish his new skill. Ground work is much the same, leave her an escape place, with new introductions. Pressure is fine, but she MUST have some place to go to get away from it, YOU are directing where she goes.

I am not understanding the Cutting person's thinking. Horses don't come brave or trained, you teach them those skills with repeated sessions. NOT many horses will stand in front of a charging cow, even trained ones dance around her, not head to head. Again the permitted escape place, to direct the cow where you want her with pressure of physical presence of the horse. If you DON'T give charging cow that escape place, she WILL HURT you, even on a horse!

You just don't put horses places where there are no possible outs at all. Again, congrats on her progress, from description it sounds like you are doing the kind of training THIS HORSE needs. Each one is different, but it is working for you and her. That is why there are SO MANY methods, one size doesn't fit them all.