English (open) classes-Saddleseat versus pleasure

[Renae]

CA you are the one who is confused. Saddle seat and pleasure are not two different things. Pleasure can be any seat, even western. English means any English seat. If you read the rules for the open WSCA shows up here they specify that Open English Pleasure is saddle seat or hunt seat only, no dressage. Comes down to sounds like the organization that holds open shows in your area needs to specify which rulebook they are following. The USEF English Pleasure and Western sections are very good and general.

[Renae]

In other word saddle seat riders ARE English Pleasure riders. With Arabians and Morgans the entire English Pleasure division is Saddle Seat only, with Saddlebreds Country English Pleasure is a saddle seat class, Country Hunter Pleasure is for hunt seat riders.

[Renae]

And as a judge I find judging these English classes of mixed seats and breeds to be a lot of fun. First I take into account what are the specs for the class- what gaits must be called and what is to be judged (manners, suitability, performance, quality, conformation- and in the USEF rulebook the order those words are in is the order of importance). Then let the exhibitors show to me, who wants to win?

[SmartAlex]

Ah, thanks WA. I was thinking it would somehow mess up their training or gaits, and I couldn't quite understand that.

A saddle seat horse's trot should be big and animated. The idea of not teaching them to canter from a trot is so they don't break their trot when they get too pumped. I was suprised to learn that dressage horses and hunters etc canter from a trot. In my upbringing it was a fault. Plus, it still seems to me that their legs would get tangled up. I've tried adding it to my hunt seat horse's repetoir and I'm sure there is a method to training that transition that I haven't mastered. It eludes me to this day

[AppendixQHLover]

I rode saddle seat and my horse got pinned when he as GOOD. When he was bad...I couldn't place high obviously when he is snorting and acting all full of himself in a pleasure class it is not pleasurable. When he as good..he placed high because he looked enjoyable to ride. The jduges in the open show that I rode with knew saddle seat and how the horses should go. I had to canter from a walk all the time. I taught my horse to do it. We actually did command classes that had 20-25 people in ti and placed in the top 5. Not bad for a freaky saddle seat horse. They also made an exception for his parking out. Show management told the judges the saddle seat horses park out. That is what they are trained to do. Give them 3 seconds to park out.

[JumpWithPanache]

A saddle seat horse's trot should be big and animated. The idea of not teaching them to canter from a trot is so they don't break their trot when they get too pumped. I was suprised to learn that dressage horses and hunters etc canter from a trot. In my upbringing it was a fault. Plus, it still seems to me that their legs would get tangled up. I've tried adding it to my hunt seat horse's repetoir and I'm sure there is a method to training that transition that I haven't mastered. It eludes me to this day

**Bolding Mine**

NOW I get why Saddle Seat horses aren't cantering from the trot. I was about to ask the reason behind only transitioning from the halt or walk and you answered my question. That makes sense now. Next question would be, do you transition to trot from canter?

[SmartAlex]

Well, yes, I guess so. Almost every horse who has been to "Saddlebred School" knows what "Whoop-Trot" means. Whoop-Trot will bring them down if they break or if you want the canter trot transition.

After the second canter, I doubt many people drop all the way to a walk before trotting to the line up. I'd have to check the rules to make sure they haven't specified that you must (walk before lining up). They've created some rules recently to reduce the havoc centered around our lining up procedures.

[ReSomething]

A saddle seat horse's trot should be big and animated. The idea of not teaching them to canter from a trot is so they don't break their trot when they get too pumped. I was suprised to learn that dressage horses and hunters etc canter from a trot. In my upbringing it was a fault. Plus, it still seems to me that their legs would get tangled up. I've tried adding it to my hunt seat horse's repetoir and I'm sure there is a method to training that transition that I haven't mastered. It eludes me to this day

It's the timing of the aid in relation to the footfalls. When I ask for the canter from the halt my trainer always asks me where the horse's feet are and has me move up to get a good square stance so we can go directly to the canter, otherwise there are a couple of steps in there, not a clean start. It helps if you sit and feel your diagonal pairs, then if say yu wanted a left lead canter it would start with the right hind and you wait for that pair RH RF to just get into the air and then cue for the upward transition. I get yelled at for doing that with the school horses because they aren't trained for it and aren't used to it, they are wanted to give a clear response to the correct cue so the kids can learn to ride properly.

You are absolutely NOT "running" them into a canter, this is a very discrete and well timed application of the aids. and since these aren't my horses I don't argue with my trainer.

sit sit sit, where are my feet? and Bump up. I've heard it described as " step down" on the leg applying the aid as well.

[ReSomething]

I'm eating my own posts when I try to add info. When you bump you aren't asking for instantaneous results, obviously, you are waiting for that set of feet to cycle back down BUT the horse will cycle easily into a canter. Honestly I'm not 100% sure I'm giving the right info as far as which batch of feet but I know how I do it. I've never seen an ASB do a simple lead change, which is where you would get the practice. Even in the Eq it's always canter-halt-canter other lead.

[ReSomething]

And getting back to the OP, I'm really confused now. I was trying to read for comprehension, I thought.

Open English? Open English what? What kind of Pleasure? Hunt seat, saddle seat, Western all in the same class??

Open at Tournament (little local inter-barn shows) means that anyone may enter regardless of their experience. English usually means saddleseat for us, could be hunt seat, but definitely not Western, and then the class is usually either a pleasure or an eq class. Horse or rider. No levels or types of pleasure, no Country Trail or Park etc etc, just Pleasure. They get complicated by adding a Horsemanship class, which judges the both of you, or a more complex eq which has an individually judged pattern as well as rail work.

I know running a show can be a complex and thankless task, but the clearer the show bill is in terms of what the class is and how it is judged should help, (plus then you can wave it in front of your complainers and ask just why they have a problem). Best of luck with your shows!

[chance2jump]

To the OP.. Any rider who claims they won because of their bling needs to get a lesson in good sportsmanship.

Growing up, ALL the open shows I've ever attended asked HUS riders to canter from a trot on the first go around and canter from a walk on the second go around. I don't see the problem with diversifying the horse's abilities. My gelding was capable of hitting a collected canter from a standstill without skipping a beat.

[Gnalli]

If you are not getting "it" about passing. Re-read my title and my initial post! "More and more -it seems like English is not saddle seat or pleasure but "open." This creates certain issues."

Did I write English pleasure????

I was writing about OPEN English classes (not English pleasure classes) where saddle seat and English pleasure type riders compete.

Any English pleasure class, that is a no duh.
Any saddle seat, that is a no duh.

It is where the two are combined. The different style of riding, the type of gaits, etc. do create issues and I was just looking for creative ways and thoughts to deal with it from the stand point of the judge and the show management. And yes, of course -splitting the two up would be best but not always doable.

B.T.W. This isn't about "me" showing. This is about being show chair and being on show committees and having to moderate the constant bickering from the two camps. About going to judge's courses and hearing from both sides. And finally -seeing the way exhibitors act in the show ring. Last Sat, I heard a saddle seat rider chew out a judge in the line-up at an open English class for asking for the canter from the trot in an open class. I was trying to take this to a higher level than comments about "whats the OPs problem -she must a sore loser."

I was writing about Open English classes. I think "bor84" may have been the only person to carefully read what I was writing and I thank her(?) for her thoughts.

Hey! You are in my area and if y'all decide to put on any classes with SS in mind, holler at me please. There are several SS horses at our barn and we'd love a chance to show them!

[bort84]

Okay, I think I understood the OP's post, so let me clarify:

Has anyone else run into issues when showing in open english pleasure classes at open shows? (Open english pleasure as the OP defined it was for english horses of ANY type - saddle seat, hunter, dressage, etc. She seems to grasp that that is what is involved with an "open english pleasure" class at an open show.)

The other question was, if you've had problems in the past, how did you solve it? Did you just suck it up and deal? Or did you just show elsewhere? Or did you try to work with show management to make a change?

To the OP: Sounds like you are involved in show management and want to see how to reduce bickering and keep everyone happy. Obviously you can't keep everyone happy, haha. But a good start would be to just offere separate classes when possible. You can also keep maybe one or two truly open english pleasure class for all comers, then add separate classes for saddle seat only and hunter only = ) Easy peasy! If you don't have enough entries to fill one class or the other, you can always cancel it, and then people might just have to deal, haha.

Also, it REALLY helps if you get judges that are well versed in all disciplines. If they are not, consider letting them know in advance what types of disciplines/breeds are likely to show up and encourage them to do some research = ) Perhaps ask him to call the transitions so they don't unfairly affect anyone as well - all english types should be able to do a canter from the walk, and go from a canter down to a walk (in my experience, these transitions are options for the judges to call in all english classes, not just saddle seat). If you don't want to make that concession for saddle seat peeps, then the saddle seat people can adjust accordingly.

As far as passing and reversing goes, whatever. People will always complain, haha. If you can add the option of separate classes as well as combined classes, that's probably your best bet = )

At most relaxed open shows, in my experience, they are usually over relatively early, so an added class or two doesn't really bother anyone much (except for those crankies that are present at all horsey events and are impossible to please).

Good luck tackling the tricky job of being show management. Oy!

[bort84]

Saddle seat horse gait transitions...

Also, as far as saddle seat gait transitions go, there are a few reasons we ask for the canter from the walk/halt and do a downward transition from the canter into a walk. Yes, all horses are capable of transitions between canter and trot, including saddle seat horses, but we don't encourage that in saddle seat horses.

As SmartAlex said, you don't want to encourage a horse to break from the trot into the canter. Since you are pushing a saddle seat horse to the very edge of disaster in his show trot, haha, you want him to never even THINK breaking into the canter is an option - that's an easy way for him to evade a big animated, yet still collected, trot (it's hard work!) Similar to how you'd never want a harness race horse to consider switching into a canter.

Another reason is that saddle seat horses operate on a very different level of collection and energy than other disciplines. You want a very focused, but explosive energy at the trot - so you can get far more collected and contained departs from a walk or halt where that energy is more contained. A big trotting saddlebred will look kind of silly and gangly departing into a canter from his showy trot (just watch some of the 2-3 year old classes...)

Now, many ASBs in classes where a true 4 beat "flat walk" isn't required do depart from a very animated "bounce walk" or "animated walk" that is usually 2 beat (think a sort of passage -esque gait). Since this is a very collected and contained gait, unlike the collected yet very very forward park trot, you can get a lovely soft canter depart.

You also don't generally ask for a downward transition from the canter into the trot because it's an odd looking transition for a saddle seat horse with a lot of action. The canter is generally quite collected, but it also has a lot of action. Breaking down into a show trot looks awkward - you need an intermediate transition (whether that's a halt/flat walk/or a very slow collected trot "animated walk."

As SmartAlex said, you will often see people drop down into a very collected trot/animated 2-beat walk at the end of the class right before you do the last pass before you line up (we like to have one last show off rail before the judge pins you) - so saddle seat horses can certainly do it. They just have to do it on a more contained level than a hunter type, where the transitions between trot and canter can be more fluid due to the different energy/collection/action levels.

Not sure if that made much sense, but hopefully it added a bit of understanding.

@SmartAlex - I, too, found it really weird when I switched to dressage/jumping and found that it was the norm to depart from a trot. I pretty much only asked for trot to canter on youngsters, haha, and generally found walk/halt to canter the easier transition. Takes a little bit of practice to get used to it = )