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  • #41
    I kind of read thru most of the posts. Here is my opinion.

    You like your trainer. This most likely will never happen again (hauling the horse in a single stall). How much $$$'s are we talking? A few hundred? Thousands? Is the horse damaged beyond repair? I say take the high road and pay the bill and stay with your trainer if that makes you happy. JMHO.
    Sandy
    www.sugarbrook.com
    hunter/jumper ponies

    Comment


    • #42
      You shouldn't have to pay for the vet/meds - it was the trainer's bright idea to ship the horse in a single, he can pony up. My suggestions:

      DO pay the vet bill so the poor vet doesn't get stiffed, and keep the bill for your records.
      DO NOT pay the meds portion of the training bill for June.
      DO calmly and logically explain your reasons to the trainer as to why the meds portion has not been paid.
      DO present the vet bill to the trainer as well, offer to work out a deal with lessons, etc.
      DO have a calm discussion with your trainer about trailering the horse: would he rather you shipped the horse yourself despite losing some control over arrival time, etc. in order to free him from the worry or space constraints?
      DO NOT carry on in a confrontational manner, threaten lawsuits, etc. An aggressive attitude breeds aggression, and most of the time this is both totally unnecessary and completely avoidable.

      I don't think leaving the barn over this incident would be entirely unreasonable, but as you seem to like the trainer and are willing to stay despite, I would try to work it out with the trainer financially so that you are not held responsible for his mistake. Treat it professionally and calmly. If the trainer fails to act in kind, then perhaps it is time to pack up and leave.
      http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/profile/Ashley26

      "You keep one leg on one side, the other leg on the other side, and your mind in the middle." -- Henry Taylor, "Riding Lesson"

      Comment


      • #43
        Look, we're all human. I think the trainer's mistake is forgiveable. Concerning, but forgiveable. I can't count the number of times people tell me XYZ about their horse and it is absolutely not true. I'm a BO, not a professional trainer, but I see it all the time with horses that come into the barn. I'm not saying people don't know their horses, just that sometimes the BO and the trainer know the horses better than the owner, plus, horses change with training, time, and new situations.

        So I can understand how a good trainer, who knows the horse very well, and who has observed it trailering very calmly, could reasonably wonder if it has indeed recovered mentally from its previous trauma and could try trailering in a smaller stall. I DO think the trainer should have discussed this issue with the owner before trying the smaller stall since the larger stall had been agreed upon. That was a mistake!

        As far as who should pay the bill...If I were the trainer, I would feel responsible and pay this bill. However, trainers usually aren't raking in the cash, and their rates aren't usually set to accommodate covering these kinds of bills, whether it is their "fault" or not. I think this is why the reality is that in these instances the owner often ends up paying the bill.

        Also, I think the tradition of the owners always paying for these types of bills comes from the fact that horses are highly accident prone. Anyway, if I were in your shoes and I wanted to stay with the trainer, I probably wouldn't push the issue.

        BTW, to be fair I'm going to gently suggest that you should have been paying for the trailering, especially for the double stall you requested. The fact that you could do it yourself is irrelevant, you should have offered to pay for the special treatment your horse needed.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
          Meanwhile I would be willing to bet that it's at least even money that the trainer will offer to pay the vet bill. It's pretty wild in my opinion to be talking about a lawsuit at this point.
          what's "wild" about it? So far the OP has said that the show vet wants her address, so obviously the trainer did not give hers to which to send the bill. And the trainer has already indicated there will be further charges for meds on an upcoming bill.
          If the trainer did not pay all these bills and not bill me one penny then I would not file a civil suit. If the the trainer did not pay and I had to pay the vet bill, you're darn tootin' I would file a suit in civil court. It doesn't cost squat to file a small claims suit.
          This is why trainers keep pullling shit like this. Because customers shut up and pay up and the one who ultimately pays is the horse.
          "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post
            ... I can't count the number of times people tell me XYZ about their horse and it is absolutely not true. I'm a BO, not a professional trainer, but I see it all the time with horses that come into the barn. I'm not saying people don't know their horses, just that sometimes the BO and the trainer know the horses better than the owner, plus, horses change with training, time, and new situations.

            So I can understand how a good trainer, who knows the horse very well, and who has observed it trailering very calmly, could reasonably wonder if it has indeed recovered mentally from its previous trauma and could try trailering in a smaller stall. I DO think the trainer should have discussed this issue with the owner before trying the smaller stall since the larger stall had been agreed upon. That was a mistake! ...
            I agree ^^

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by 00Jumper View Post
              You shouldn't have to pay for the vet/meds - it was the trainer's bright idea to ship the horse in a single, he can pony up. My suggestions:

              DO pay the vet bill so the poor vet doesn't get stiffed, and keep the bill for your records.
              DO NOT pay the meds portion of the training bill for June.
              DO calmly and logically explain your reasons to the trainer as to why the meds portion has not been paid.
              DO present the vet bill to the trainer as well, offer to work out a deal with lessons, etc.
              DO have a calm discussion with your trainer about trailering the horse: would he rather you shipped the horse yourself despite losing some control over arrival time, etc. in order to free him from the worry or space constraints?
              DO NOT carry on in a confrontational manner, threaten lawsuits, etc. An aggressive attitude breeds aggression, and most of the time this is both totally unnecessary and completely avoidable.

              I don't think leaving the barn over this incident would be entirely unreasonable, but as you seem to like the trainer and are willing to stay despite, I would try to work it out with the trainer financially so that you are not held responsible for his mistake. Treat it professionally and calmly. If the trainer fails to act in kind, then perhaps it is time to pack up and leave.
              I agree with this for the most part, other than that I would be leaving the barn so the part about trailering would be irrelevant. I would not leave my horse in the barn of one that I could not trust. I totally agree that the vet needs to be paid.
              But if you are going to stay, that part would also be irrelevant because I would insist that I trailer the horse myself in the future or I would arrange for shipping at my expense, and it would not be up for debate as far as the trainer was concerned.
              I would also try to work something out so that your losses as far as vet bills and so on are recouped and would not even mention suing. I'm not a threatener.
              If the trainer is amenable and it works out that you get your $$, great. If not, great. Move your horse then file a civil suit to recoup your losses for vet bills, show expenses since the horse was unable to show etc.

              And why should the OP have offered to pay for trailering for her own horse when she was able to do it herself and was forbidden by the trainer, as stated in the first post? That makes no sense.
              "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Jaegermonster View Post
                And why should the OP have offered to pay for trailering for her own horse when she was able to do it herself and was forbidden by the trainer, as stated in the first post? That makes no sense.
                If I read the OP correctly, the trainer shipped the horse for free because he would rather control the arrival time, etc. of the horse, but realizes that the OP has the option to do so herself, and thus would be disinclined to pay for the service. I know I would not have paid for trailering in this case and would never had even offered. Going forward, were it my horse, I would offer and maybe even firmly insist that I ship the horse myself. Not because I think the trainer is totally stupid (at least, that's what I would say ) but because the horse is sort of a shipping issue it would free the trainer of the burden of shipping the horse. And truthfully, it would, really. The way the horse is is obviously not going to change, so that is neither here nor there, I would just offer opportunities for the trainer to avoid dealing with the horse's trailering needs with the added bonus that most of the control over shipping would return to the owner.
                http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/profile/Ashley26

                "You keep one leg on one side, the other leg on the other side, and your mind in the middle." -- Henry Taylor, "Riding Lesson"

                Comment


                • #48
                  Oh ok. I see what you're saying. I would not have offered to pay for shipping unless I were hiring a commercial shipper if it is something I can do myself (haul my own horse).
                  But like I said, I"m not the kind that lets my trainer tell me what will and will not be done with my own horse.
                  "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by hAlterTop
                    No, it's not money grubbing. He is not charging me for trailering, since I told him I wouldn't pay someone to do something I can do myself. He would rather haul a horse free to maintain control of their health, arrival time, etc., than let someone else do it. OK, fine.
                    the hell it's not money grubbing. By putting your horse in the smaller stall instead of doing what he promised, he could sell the other half to someone else, which he did. And your horse paid for it.
                    And he insulted your intelligence and horsemanship to boot by saying he wanted control of their health and all this other garbage. I agree with the poster who said grow a spine, nut up and take up for your horse.
                    "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      And why should the OP have offered to pay for trailering for her own horse when she was able to do it herself and was forbidden by the trainer, as stated in the first post? That makes no sense.[/QUOTE]

                      At any barn there are many things that owner's "could" do but are forbidden to, and have to pay for. I've never had a problem with this but for example we charge a fee to groom and tack up training horses for one of the trainers here. Could you come and do this yourself? Sure. Are you allowed to? No, us doing it is part of the total program. Many barns consider their success rooted in attention to a wide array of details that are all part of the preparation. Just because you have the ability to take care of those details yourself if you wanted to doesn't mean that your trainer should do it for free.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        tacking up a horse that is there on training board should be incorporated into the fee for training board and not a separate fee
                        This might be just me, but I can't stand barns that nickle and dime like that.
                        Obviously the horse needs to be tacked to be ridden, it should be part of the training board. It's really a separate issue and different type of situation than trailering.
                        Trailering is another issue entirely. In this case obviously the OP was able and willing to do the job herself and was "not allowed" to by the trainer, who then did not do the job as promised and injured the horse. So not only were there vet bills, what about the show expenses that the owner lost out on since the horse was hurt due to the trainer's carelessness?
                        "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Jaegermonster View Post
                          the hell it's not money grubbing. By putting your horse in the smaller stall instead of doing what he promised, he could sell the other half to someone else, which he did. And your horse paid for it.
                          I read it to mean that there were the same amount of stalls, the same amount of horses, and therefore the same amount of money. He switched two horses' stalls because one horse was larger, but he did not gain financially from it.
                          <><

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Personally I would have my horse out of there yesterday. Lack of respect for me, the owner, is a deal breaker for me.
                            Dear trainer - I pay you, I can fire you.


                            To the op: please be very aware of what else the trainer does with / to YOUR horse. Said horse depends on you to watch out for him.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Op, I don't get it...you are laughing at us suggesting you grow a spine, yet you are the one who came on here asking us for suggestions regarding the bill. That seems somewhat contradictory.

                              I don't need to come on a discussion board to ask how I should proceed.
                              this situation is clear cut to me.

                              Trainer not only ignored, but put your horse in harms' way. Because he ignored you, and put your horse in a position where the horse injured himself...ignoring your directions, and caused a vet bill, and additional charges to b&t bill, and you are asking us how to proceed. This all makes me think you are young or inexperienced.

                              You obviously like the trainer. One thing in life I have learned...if you are basically happy, then overlook the bad things. In other words, pay anything the trainer presents, pay the vet bill, and don't discuss any of this. You will only be causing bad blood.

                              It is not the path I would take, but I have found 'discussing' things with people who should know better, ie not presenting a bill for the crap I caused, only creates a problem. So shut up and pay...its what you want and it will keep the peace...at least for the trainer, maybe not so much for you, but for the trainer, yes, it will.
                              Speak up, and you open the pandora's box. I only discuss things with people I know will listen. Your trainer does not care...obvious to me by mentioning his additions to his june bill.
                              save lives...spay/neuter/geld

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                                (Bolding mine)
                                Really, you are assigning some of the blame to the horse ? Really?
                                That horse is dangerously claustrophobic from previous problems from unfortunate trailer wreck. That is not the "normal" horse who trailers easy and both parties knew that there will probably be problems with this horse in a trailer:

                                that horse, previously in a trailer wreck and known to be claustrophobic, was put into a claustrophobic situation...and how do you think that horse felt being so totally terrified he went down. Failing being able to fight or flee, he thrashed, flailed, struggled and hurt himself.
                                If somebody will ever ask to trailer their horse and will tell that their horse was in a trailer wreck and dangerously claustrophobic, my suggestion would be NOT to trailer that horse with any of other horses, unless to a vet. If that means that a rider can't go to a show = it's rider's loss, but a trailer wreck claustrophobic horse should be speared unpleasant trailering experience, unless it's necessary.

                                + A trailer wreck claustrophobic horse who is known to have trailering problems will also negatively affect (endanger) other horses in the same trailer. Why risk it? Owner is lucky that she doesn’t have to pay for vet bills for other horses that were together in the trailer with her "thrashed, flailed, struggled" horse that went down from being claustrophobic.

                                The very first mistake that trainer did is to agree to trailer dangerously claustrophobic horse. The very first mistake that owner did is to agree to let her trainer to trailer dangerously claustrophobic horse.

                                Crap happens with everybody, but who would want knowingly put their horses together in the same trailer with such horse? It seems that this horse is a special case and should be trailered always alone, not to endanger other horses in case it will go down again from being claustrophobic in a trailer.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by hAlterTop
                                  Anyways, thank you all. I will be requesting this thread be closed or removed since I have my answer.
                                  There never just one answer, but this thread should help you to be prepared how other people might think of this situation. Everybody looks at situations a little different and your trainer's POV might be also a little different as well. Before not paying the vet bill, just make sure that your trainer clearly did know that he was trailering a dangerously claustrophobic horse, make sure that you didn’t say "he probably will be OK" or "he didn't do that for a long time already" or "he doesn't do that in my trailer" or "he is fine alone"... your trainer might come back and back sue you for not fully disclosing the dangerous situation.

                                  Be prepared not for just one outcome, but for several. Good luck and I hope that your horse will get better soon.

                                  PS: You deleted all of your posts now, but earlier you actually did say to your trainer that you tried to trailer your horse in a single stall and he was OK that time. May be that gave your trainer an idea that it's OK to trailer your horse in a single stall as well?

                                  Also, if a local trainer goes to a large show and has an empty stall in her trailer, she offers others to trailer their horses for the price of gas. For example, it would cost me to trailer myself $100 in gas, I would rather pay same $100 in gas to that trainer and not use/wear my truck/trailer. And for a trainer a $100 in gas is an additional $100 even if she doesn’t charge for trailering itself. That doesn't make a trainer a control freak
                                  Last edited by Dressage Art; Jun. 1, 2010, 05:44 AM.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally Posted by Lucassb
                                    Meanwhile I would be willing to bet that it's at least even money that the trainer will offer to pay the vet bill. It's pretty wild in my opinion to be talking about a lawsuit at this point.
                                    Originally posted by Jaegermonster View Post
                                    what's "wild" about it? So far the OP has said that the show vet wants her address, so obviously the trainer did not give hers to which to send the bill. And the trainer has already indicated there will be further charges for meds on an upcoming bill.
                                    If the trainer did not pay all these bills and not bill me one penny then I would not file a civil suit. If the the trainer did not pay and I had to pay the vet bill, you're darn tootin' I would file a suit in civil court. It doesn't cost squat to file a small claims suit.
                                    This is why trainers keep pullling shit like this. Because customers shut up and pay up and the one who ultimately pays is the horse.
                                    What is wild IMO is that the OP doesn't even know if the trainer plans to pay the bill yet. I don't think the answer to every issue is to immediately sue someone - although it has certainly become a popular American pastime.

                                    It would not be at all unusual for a show vet to ask for the owner's info, and it does not necessarily indicate anything about who will pay the bill. In the course of treating an injury in such circs, the focus will be on the horse. Later, when the accounts are being done, someone from the vet's office might be sent around to collect the information (the vet will want the owner's info for their records, if nothing else.) I would personally have no problem handing the bill to the trainer, but at the end of the day I cannot imagine it's a particularly significant bill. It was a cut that didn't even get stitches, for crying out loud. Unfortunate, for sure, but not something I would go to court over.
                                    **********
                                    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                    -PaulaEdwina

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I'm really startled by the number of people out for the trainer's blood. To me, this sounds like a good trainer who made a single mistake. Horses advance in their training and get over past problems all the time, though in this case it was sort of a special issue. It sounds like otherwise his training and management program is having great results for the horse. Unless this were a symptom of a larger problem, I would tend to forgive this type of thing more easily than a lot of other problems (ineffective/inept or abusive training, bad day to day horse management, bad communication or unethical/dishonest business practices). Generally in life if someone is doing a good job otherwise and seems to have good intentions it seems dumb to me to crucify them for a single mistake. Horses are highly accident prone. I'd be thankful the horse was okay, and a little more watchful for a period of time.

                                      Just a little reality check for you guys...I have horses in training with several different types of trainers and I train (my own) horses myself...and we ALL sometimes make mistakes that cost time and money.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Trainers who made (or those working for them) mistakes that got my horses hurt or caused property damage creating a bill for me made good though. Usually a board discount or some Pro rides or lessons at no charge to compensate for my out of pocket costs to repair the damage or pay the vet. Over about 40 years it's happened, maybe, 2 or 3 times, nothing like this though.

                                        Never heard "I made a mistake by not doing what I said I would. By the way, there will be additional charges on your next bill to compensate for what I caused".

                                        If OP learned one thing here it's that any owner needs to understand how any trainer's business works. Whether trainer wants total, absolute control or will work with the owner. Find out up front-it is something to understand fully before moving in.

                                        And, hey, I got a good friend with a total control trainer mentioned earlier, works for them very well. I got no problem with it. But I prefer to be a little more involved and chose accordingly. Different strokes.

                                        But, still, that hinting additional charges will be upcoming? That still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
                                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          So frustrating when the OP deletes the original post. Grrr.

                                          Add me to the crowd that thinks you should pay the vet bill when it comes. The vet treated your horse in good faith. At least that is what I get from reading the other posts here.

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