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So one of the lesson horses came at me really aggressively today...

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
    As for your lesson horse, well, - if he only acts up when someone stands in the middle of the ring - can everyone not just avoid standing in the middle of the ring?

    I sort of think the horse could tell the difference between a rider falling off of him and a trainer standing in the middle. Don't you? I mean, I expect people have fallen off him before without incident, right?
    Everyone besides me knew not to stand in the middle and has no issues with him at all, so that's exactly the barn's plan.

    He has had riders come off and won't come at them, sorry for not addressing that before. He does seem to know the difference between the evil trainer and the rider who has fallen off.

    Comment


    • #22
      Do you ride the horse?
      What if you spend some time riding the horse so he sees you differently. You could get respect from him and it may translate to when you are on the ground.
      If you are not looking for suggestions to fix the horse and you cannot change the scenario what would you like from people that would help you?

      Something like "If you really think you are in danger you need to fix it or stick up for yourself."

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by equinelaw View Post
        I <3 the horse. A lesson program like that will make me rich some day!
        I agree.

        I am of the philosophy that lesson students aren't there to train anyone's horses. Get the horse the hell out of there until such time as he is proven to be safe, sane and trustworthy for a student rider.
        I Loff My Quarter Horse & I love Fenway Bartholomule cliques

        Just somebody with a positive outlook on life...go ahead...hate me for that.

        Comment


        • #24
          I agree Chall, you are not the only one, re your comment 'Am I the only one who thinks he already has been beaten?'. Now that I have read the update post 19, I see that was confirmed. Lesgarcons, I really am sorry you are being put in this situation, and understand that you really don't have much control over it, other than to refuse to use the horse, very wise decision.

          The part that really alarmed me was the 'To clarify, the horse will only come after the instructor if s/he is standing in the middle of the arena. ' and that you were not made aware of this ahead of time. Is there somewhere safer where you can ply your trade/train/teach? If so, I would be skedaddling out of there really fast, and might even consult an attorney to see if you have a cause of action over the stable's negligence in not warning you of what might happen if you were in center ring. That negligence could have killed you, had you not been able to get out of the way. It does not matter if he was intending to kick or not, just running over you would have been sufficient to kill you if you had not been able to get out of the way.
          Last edited by sdlbredfan; May. 22, 2010, 09:11 PM. Reason: add content
          Jeanie
          RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

          Comment


          • #25
            Ok, this is what I wonder about this. At what point in your life do you start thinking it is ok to have a horse that does things like this? How about when someone falls off and he suddenly decides - even tho he has never done it before! To go stomp them? Do you say " oh... He's never done THAT before!!!"

            OP, I would find somewhere else to work. Who knows what other little secrets are waiting for you, that someone OOPS forgot to tell you?!!!
            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
            ---
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #26
              Originally posted by stoicfish View Post
              Do you ride the horse?
              What if you spend some time riding the horse so he sees you differently. You could get respect from him and it may translate to when you are on the ground.
              If you are not looking for suggestions to fix the horse and you cannot change the scenario what would you like from people that would help you?

              Something like "If you really think you are in danger you need to fix it or stick up for yourself."
              Riding him is a good idea. I was also thinking of having a trainer ride and another trainer stand in the middle with treats. Horse comes over and gets a treat if he handles himself appropriately. Drill this enough and maybe it will help change his mind?

              I'm not completely opposed to working with him, but I don't want to try anything that could result in making him worse (lunge whips, cattle prods, etc).

              I was wondering if anyone had a story of 'curing' a horse who is aggressive on the ground, and what worked for them.

              Also, this horse came to us with a known history of severe abuse by a trainer. So those of you thinking abuse are absolutely correct, but it was not by my barn.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by lesgarcons View Post
                Riding him is a good idea. I was also thinking of having a trainer ride and another trainer stand in the middle with treats. Horse comes over and gets a treat if he handles himself appropriately. Drill this enough and maybe it will help change his mind?

                I'm not completely opposed to working with him, but I don't want to try anything that could result in making him worse (lunge whips, cattle prods, etc).

                I was wondering if anyone had a story of 'curing' a horse who is aggressive on the ground, and what worked for them.

                Also, this horse came to us with a known history of severe abuse by a trainer. So those of you thinking abuse are absolutely correct, but it was not by my barn.
                The treat idea is excellent, especially need to make it clear to him that the treat may come from any direction, front, back and sides, and to look for it with his front end.
                Jeanie
                RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                Comment


                • #28
                  All I can think is "that poor horse".

                  I sympathize with your fear. But that horse...he needs to do something else. Makes me sad.
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  You can't have everything. Where would you put it all?

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I know nothing of clicker training but I think this might be a good use. I agree with the idea of two trainers and a BIG ASS bag of carrots or other favorite treat. I think in Human terms it's called ReFraming.


                    and SHAME on who ever suggested a cattle prod.

                    I would also suggest confusing the roles, I'd ride him, REALLY get to know him, make him your buddy, and then go from there. If you are just teaching a lesson on him and he doesn't know you from Adam, why wouldn't he if he thinks all trainers are EVIL, and it sounds like one was VERY evil to him. It takes a LOT to make a horse try to take someone out.

                    I know of a local RI that has a lesson horse who doesn't lunge. I requested some lunge line time and spent 20 minutes of my lesson with the horse jerking around like an idiot because he HATED being lunged. It would have been much more professional to explain that THAT particular horse... doesn't lunge. Didn't mean he wasn't a great lesson horse otherwise. P'aint may know the horse of whom I speak, I think a fellow Cother owns him now. He's a sweety! Just doesn't like to be lunged.
                    If i'm posting on Coth, it's either raining so I can't ride or it's night time and I can't sleep.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by Adelita View Post
                      All I can think is "that poor horse".

                      I sympathize with your fear. But that horse...he needs to do something else. Makes me sad.
                      I definitely agree with this on one hand, but on the other hand, we can offer an almost completely controlled environment where the worst thing that's happened in a year is a new trainer getting too close to him and getting threatened.

                      If he were a trail horse, which I think would be the only job where his trainer aggression might not come into play, I think there would be a lot more risk of some random person approaching him with a whip, etc, where someone could get hurt.

                      And, I agree with the sentiment of the 'get another job' remarks. If I were responding to someone else, I'd say that too. But if you put yourself in the position of someone in their early 20s who is dying to be an instructor, in this economy, would you really quit? I think that choosing not to use the horse in my lessons could be enough, but I am interested in what others have to say.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        On the 'But if you put yourself in the position of someone in their early 20s who is dying to be an instructor, in this economy, would you really quit? ' my answer is yes, sure beats getting killed on the job. I highly doubt your current position comes with health benefits or would qualify for workman's comp if you were injured on the job. If you'd like to PM a few folks on the BB about where you are and the name of the bad place you are in (can imagine you might not want to say that publicly) I am sure that someone would have some ideas for you on where else to go, either in your current part of the country or elsewhere.
                        Jeanie
                        RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Adelita View Post
                          All I can think is "that poor horse".

                          I sympathize with your fear. But that horse...he needs to do something else. Makes me sad.
                          OP, I realize that you do not make decisions about the future of the horse but now that I know about his history I too feel sorry for it.

                          A horse that has been beaten so severely that it still believes that it needs to defend itself does not belong in a lesson program. I think a single owner would be better able to handle his special needs and hopefully rehabilitate him. Poor sad thing.

                          This just makes me sad, it would be easier on my heart if he were a rank POS in need of good beating. Now I am just filled with pity.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by sdlbredfan View Post
                            On the 'But if you put yourself in the position of someone in their early 20s who is dying to be an instructor, in this economy, would you really quit? ' my answer is yes, sure beats getting killed on the job. I highly doubt your current position comes with health benefits or would qualify for workman's comp if you were injured on the job. If you'd like to PM a few folks on the BB about where you are and the name of the bad place you are in (can imagine you might not want to say that publicly) I am sure that someone would have some ideas for you on where else to go, either in your current part of the country or elsewhere.
                            Ditto this. The Horse business is dangerous by nature... Stacking the odds of getting hurt in your favor is not recommended.
                            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                            ---
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I am a smaller adult and rode a pony in lessons about 8 years ago. Y'know, the typical beautiful sweet-looking pony? She was in her shed row stall when I opened the door to go in and tack her up. Wellll, she grabbed me on my R shoulder (I had a shirt and sweater on), pushed me back about 20' until I fell on my bum, then she went back to her stall and hid in the corner. I wasn't hurt and I was laughing, but it would NOT have been funny if she had been a big horse or I had been a little kid. I did ride her that afternoon. She was always crabby on the ground but point and shoot once I was on her back.

                              If I was on the nasty horse, I would be most upset if he started backing up heading for the trainer. I'm not sure I'd ride that horse again if I was the student.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I think if the horse made you so fearful you cried you need to find either another job period or another barn to teach at. One that doesn't think they can easily replace you when Sparky stomps you into oblivion.
                                http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  The stuff puzzle pieces coming together about the horse's having been beaten by a ground person make sense.

                                  If you still want to fix him, fake him out with treats. I'm sure you can think of ways to do this, but it might involve two people at least.

                                  And to all of you who think horses who have been beaten don't belong in lesson programs? They may not belong, but there are many horses who have fallen down the ranks or through the cracks who end up as schoolies.

                                  The whole thing does make me sad except for imagining the day that this horse discovers what that being in the middle of the ring means less work and more mints.
                                  The armchair saddler
                                  Politically Pro-Cat

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I dunno, folks. The 'big bag o'treats' approach sounds humane, but I can see where it could actually lead to more trouble for all concerned.

                                    Teaching a horse that the person on the ground in the center is the source of treats can lead to the horse actively seeking out such a person. Beginner riders have enough trouble with steering without being on a horse whose desire in life is to go stand in the middle and get rewarded for it. The OP said part of the issue arose because a beginner rider was letting the horse get into the middle of the ring. Occupational hazard with beginner riders, and this horse's job in life is as a schoolie for beginners.

                                    Also, many lesson barns have strict rules against hand-feeding treats at all because horses that equate people with treats soon start attempting to 'shake down' anybody on the ground looking for treats.

                                    No solution to the OP's desire to help this horse resolve its current issue; just don't want to see it replaced with one or more new issues that could further jeopardize the horse's future.
                                    Incredible Invisible

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Convince one of the students to buy him!

                                      Really, my first horse came in as a new schoolie in the lesson program I was in. He had all kinds of odd issues about people with whips, people with pitchforks, anything really (he had to wear his halter in his stall because if you walked in his stall with a halter, the butt would come around and fast, and he was a 16hh 1500lb quarter horse... not fun.

                                      A bunch of of the really advanced riders at the barn who had shown and ridden for years tried him without much success, he wasn't dangerous to the rider, just really.. unmotivated. I was complaining to my instructor about having to always ride the same horse twice a week (nobody else ever wanted him so I always rode him) and she had me try Roy. Really, it changed him. I was a dumb 15 year old kid who was green as grass and loved to brush the pony and ride him around a little without asking a whole lot. He adored me, and my parents ended up buying him for me as my first horse

                                      He WAS always quirky about people in the arena but got MUCH MUCH better as I owned him, the consistancy in his life is what he needed. I had just gotten to the point where he could be in the stall and turnout without his halter when I lost him, unfortunately, to colic.

                                      I assume he had a bad experience, but his past is very unknown to me. A trainer at my lesson had bought him from a chainlink fence in the back yard of someone's house in the suburbs, and all the people on his papers were impossible to find, one was banned from the AQHA. My guy was halter lines and halter only, and built rightly so, but really anything that happened before he was 7 years old is only speculation.

                                      He sounds like one I would be overly kind too, but I am kind of that way.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Sounds to me like the horse needs training before it's considered appropriate to do lessons!

                                        However got to say that I'm a bit confused by the OP. Are you saying that you're a Riding Instructor and hence on the ground teaching a pupil??

                                        If so then I've really got to say that I'm seriously wondering about a Riding Instructor that wants to cry and doesn't know how to quickly get out of the way of a horse coming towards her.... whether it's backwards or forwards! Didn't your training include such as safety awareness and positioning?

                                        Having said that a horse that is regularly showing aggression to people on the ground needs to be out of an arena and not doing lessons.

                                        End of!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          All I can say is that I am NOT a fan of suing anyone for anything, but if I was Joe Beginner and fell off (especially in the center of the ring ) and this horse came at me and hurt me, well...let's just say that in court this horse's history of aggressiveness would play center stage. Bottom line-the horse is dangerous and any "head trainer" who would insist on using him is asking for a well-deserved lawsuit. OP-find another job.
                                          JB-Infinity Farm
                                          www.infinitehorses.com

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