Frustrated and hurt... please read

[Devon]

Okay, while I understand that you are still trying to figure out what to do with him, in the meantime, why in the world was he allowed to start pawing at you? As long as you still have him, please protect yourself. Carry a crop with you, not to abuse him, but he shouldn't be allowed in your "space" unless you invited him. As he approaches you, just use the crop or a leadline to wave him off. He's certainly got your number. Little things like that will help him learn to respect you. Some things you can practice. Put him loose in the arena or a small area. Walk towards him and make him move away everytime he stops. As soon as he moves away, you stop. Then, when he's stopped somewhere else, you go over there and claim that spot. He doesn't have to run away, just make him leave the area.

[winter]

I don't understand the mentality that every single horse, regardless of talent, temperment or value deserves to have thousands of dollars and millions of tears spent in it's favour just by virtue of being equine.
Not every horse is worth this effort. Some horses are mean. That's just how they are. You don't need this.
Most people wouldn't support you, but I would if you sent this horse back regardless of what might happen to him. You have no money, so you need to recoup some of what you spent on this horse. If a trade is possible, rather than considering what they will do with him after consider how safer you will be and how much less money you will be out.
Failing that, send him to auction or put him down. People are fully buyer beware at an auction, they know he's there for a reason.
Rio Tex generously offered you a horse, that's pretty amazing.
If you were made of money the story would be diferent, but you're not. Do the practical thing. There is no shame in not sending your family into debt because of a horse. There is no shame in saving your own skin.

[Prairie]

Amen, to what winter posted. Send him on his way, get yourself another (safer, saner) horse to work with, and move on.

[Jessi P]

Fig 8, if you haven't gotten my PM.. I have a horse I would consider trading you for Sam. I train racehorses and even tho I am waiting to foal at the moment (was due Saturday but she just wont let go lol ) I am looking for a winter project. I am close by you geographically (have used Aurora clinic several times myself and love them), and whats more have the experience and know-how to feel comfortable working with Sam. Just a thought.

[Figure-Eight]

hobie cat- I got your PM, sorry I haven't responded yet. That is very thoughtful of you, and I will definately discuss it with my mother.

Riotex- You are too kind. I'm not sure about the haul from Texas to PA though! I will definately keep it in mind, though. Thanks!

[Figure-Eight]

hobie cat- I sent a PM back your way!

[Inyureye]

F8 - Take Hobie up on her offer - you couldn't ask for a better placement for your Sam - and anything she might have for you would be a great horse. You couldn't have a better solution, really really do it.

Cheers

[chai]

I hope you can work things out with hobie cat. I have been in your shoes, Figure-Eight, and I spent 13 years trying to get through to a very aggressive OTTB that a trainer gave me for free (you know that saying, 'never look a gift horse..."). She became increasingly aggressive with both other horses and us, to the point where she rammed our dear old gelding at a full gallop, breaking his ribs. I should have put her down that day, but I just couldn't bear it, as it took 40 minutes for the vet to get there to put our gelding down and I was about to lose my mind, it was so horrible.
Anyway, when she began squealing and striking out at us, and I had tried everything from trainers to hormone chips and it was getting worse and worse, we put her down and she is buried on our farm. I do not ever send my horse to auction, nor could I trade her for fear that she would hurt someone else (she had already broken my foot and my hand when she just lost it and freaked out on separate occasions). If things don't work out with someone as experienced as hobie cat, I would urge you to consider euthanasia. Good luck

[graystonefarm]

What is wrong with you people???? Why would she euthanize him???? She just said 80% of the time he is great! He is not trying to hurt her for no reason! He kicked out b/c she was treating his leg which was injured. If he was trying to bite her and charge at her and kick her with ears pinned, then I would understand euthanizing him. She said he pinned her into the wall. Well perhaps he is in pain! Horses in pain will rub against the wall and will paw. Perhaps he is just trying to tell her that he hurts somewhere.

F-8, please either trade with Hoby Cat or change his feed NOW. If the B/O isn't there, just have his grain taken away or reduced. You are the owner and you have the right to insist on it no matter who is feeding.

Magnum had a super suggestion. If it is a tooth problem, then get it fixed. It is your responsibility as a his owner to take care of him.

I feel so sorry for this poor guy. There is something wrong. Figure out what it is. If you can't or don't want to, then trade with Hoby Cat.

[carnivalhill]

Although I haven't read all 6 pages of this post, and maybe this is a duplication, I feel you need to consider this: You are noble to consider this animal's needs, but have you considered the impact he will have on you? Never mind the obvious danger of being kicked in the head -- he will mess with your mind in ways you haven't even thought of. A horse like this will DESTROY your confidence. As you have already discovered, you will question and second guess everything YOU are /can /should be doing. Your riding is already suffering as you are spending all your time trying to figure out this horse's issues.
You need to focus on YOUR goals, instead of searching for some magic pill that will fix him. You can't, and you won't. You will, however, succeed in killing your love of horses and riding. Already, at 17, you don't want to go to the barn and pursue what is probably your life's passion. Don't let him take this away from you. He's just ONE horse. Bite the bullet and take him back. It takes just as much money to feed a good horse, as it does to feed one who is making your life miserable. He is damaged goods, and always will be. Horses who have suffered abuse are time bombs. You can NEVER know when they will revert to their old behaviors. They can't be trusted. You will worry everytime you handle/ride him if today is the today he'll put you down or take you out altogether. You can't know what his triggers are. It has taken him 10 years to get like this -- it is foolish to think that some TLC will make everything OK.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> He is not trying to hurt her for no reason! He kicked out b/c she was treating his leg which was injured. If he was trying to bite her and charge at her and kick her with ears pinned, then I would understand euthanizing him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He did come after her while lunging. She's been kicked several times.

Yes, going to a home where he can be better dealt with is a great option, but if things don't work out, euthanasia is far better than the horse being sold to more and more marginal homes until he is found starving in a pasture.

IMO, it is a lot like the pound - there are a bunch of dogs at the pound - the aggressive ones are put to sleep as well as a good chunk of the nice ones. The best find homes. How many nicer horses than the poster's are sitting in line waiting to be slaughtered?

I think it is great that someone offered to take the horse and retrain - what luck for the posters horse. Hope it works out for all involved.

[MandyVA]

"Yes, going to a home where he can be better dealt with is a great option, but if things don't work out, euthanasia is far better than the horse being sold to more and more marginal homes until he is found starving in a pasture.

IMO, it is a lot like the pound - there are a bunch of dogs at the pound - the aggressive ones are put to sleep as well as a good chunk of the nice ones. The best find homes. How many nicer horses than the poster's are sitting in line waiting to be slaughtered?"

Amen. Why is this such an accepted practice for cats and dogs but not horses? As I have said on other threads, better for horse owners--and even rescues--to put down some undesirable horses than see thousands of perfectly nice ones get the bolt gun.

[nightsong]

As many posters have said, the dealer that gave F-E a trade-in guarantee is probably not terribly scrupulous, but it may just be the place to get him a more appropraite home. And the way he looks now, I wouldn't be worried about him going to a marginal home. I think it will work out. sure, there is a physical problem. It can't be anything else. Just some more vet/dental work (that was a SUPER suggestion about the tooth root!!!!) is needed. If you can't afford it YOURSELF, then send him on to someone who can. I frankly doubt your ability to financially support a horse, but since y ou (AND your mom) seem bound and determined, then by all means get a safe one. Cuts down on the doctor bills, doesn't it!???

And here's a VERRY effective way to get horses to keep their distance. Swing about three feet of the end of a rope, lead line, whatever you have in a fast circle like an airplane propeller. Your hand holding the rope just makes tiny circles right in front of your belly while the end of the rope makes large circles out in front of you. Works AMAZINGLY well.

[RioTex]

Figure Eight, I know that at your age (and experience level) you are not ready to give up, but take it from those of us that have been there and done that. Get in the car this weekend and go see the horse Hobie Cat has offered you. If HC is willing to make a project of yours, this is a serious win-win situation. NO ONE is going to fault you for quitting or giving up on Sam and YOUR safety has to come above all else.

[graystonefarm]

I'm going to tell this story, not for the purpose of pursuading F-8 to keep her horse, but to back up my opinion that this horse should not be euthanized. There is a poster on this board (whom I won't identify, but perhaps she will come forward with her entire story) that has a horse who would kick at her and lunge forward at her while she tried to work him. He would buck her off and purposesly try to harm her. She has told me numerous times that he would "try to kill" her. She bought him at a young age and this horse was NEVER abused. He just had her number and thought he was the boss. She sent him to a dressage trainer who worked with him on the long-lines for about 3 months. She got him back this spring and he is completely reformed. He is like a puppy dog! She is now showing him and he is winning! I look into his eyes and he is happy and calm and secure. He is sweet and kind now! This is a horse that was given a chance by being sent to a COMPETENT PROFESSIONAL and has been rehabilitated. I am so glad that he hadn't ended up being owned by some of you b/c he would surely not be here today.

I am just appauled that so many would give up and do what's easiest (euthenize) and then justify their actions by thinking that the horse is better off b/c it it would end up starving anyway.

If anything else, F-8's horse would make a great trail horse with an experienced adult who has the money to take proper care him. Our horses are not "things". They are living creatures and we have the responsibility of caring for them. If you can't do it properly, then find someone who can rather than conveniently ending their life to suit your own needs.

[MyArgie]

graystone- i think you need to recognise F8's situation before coming down on the euthansia offer. BEFORE this thread, she did not have so many options. if she can't afford to keep the horse b/c of his and her personal safety, isn't it better to euthanize than send him back into an abusive home? i don't support the euthanzia option b/c now there are alternatives, but i understand how difficult the situation is.

[Illyria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nightsong:
I think it will work out. sure, there is a physical problem. It can't be anything else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Suppose it's a mental one? Some horses just don't want to do what we want them to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And here's a VERRY effective way to get horses to keep their distance. Swing about three feet of the end of a rope, lead line, whatever you have in a fast circle like an airplane propeller. Your hand holding the rope just makes tiny circles right in front of your belly while the end of the rope makes large circles out in front of you. Works AMAZINGLY well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sure it works very well, but in my opinion this is the sort of stuff one can't teach over the internet. It sounds like a good idea, but if you've never done it before, it doesn't always work out, and what if the horse doesn't stop coming at you? That's why I send mine who act up to a point where I don't feel comfortable dealing with them to a cowboy.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If anything else, F-8's horse would make a great trail horse with an experienced adult who has the money to take proper care him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not if he can't be ridden or handled. And from what I've seen not many people, adults or not, want to spend lots of money on a trail horse that may or may not be rideable.

Being good 80% of the time is not good enough if the other 20% he's too unpredictable or dangerous....being a bit bratty or spoiled/pushy is okay for most people to deal with, but outright trying to kick you or come at you is not okay. It might get better if he gets sent to a professional, but it might not. Not all horses want to please or want to have anything to do with humans, and who knows why.

[Paloma]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by graystonefarm:
What is wrong with you people???? Why would she euthanize him???? She just said 80% of the time he is great! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And 20% of the time he's got a screw loose. That is a 1 out of 5 chance that at any given moment this horse will hurt her (YET AGAIN) or actually succeed in killing her.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> He is not trying to hurt her for no reason! He kicked out b/c she was treating his leg which was injured. If he was trying to bite her and charge at her and kick her with ears pinned, then I would understand euthanizing him. She said he pinned her into the wall. Well perhaps he is in pain! Horses in pain will rub against the wall and will paw. Perhaps he is just trying to tell her that he hurts somewhere. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Or perhaps as the OP said, he does his Jekyll and Hyde routine for no apparent reason, other than he has a screw loose. He is NOT predictable. He IS dangerous. Euthanasia is a legitimate option (not saying the ONLY option) in this situation. But after a year, enough is enough. Send him back or put him down.

[graystonefarm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MyArgie:
graystone- i think you need to recognise F8's situation before coming down on the euthansia offer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't. I disagree whole-heartedly on this one. There will always be other options. F8 herself said euthanizing him was not an option. Remember that he is good "80%" of the time. I do agree that he is not a suitable horse for her and I do think that she should consider Hobby Cat's offer on a trade if that horse is suitable for her.

Many people are assuming that F8's horse has been abused, however, there is no proof of this, except for the fact that he was underfed before she bought him. Perhaps he was fed like a QH with only 4 flakes of hay per day. Some people aren't familar with big TBs or WBs and don't know how to feed them.

What if his problem is EPSM? What if he just doesn't feel good and what if by just changing something so little like his feed will change EVERYTHING???

Hobby Cat, that you for giving this poor guy a second chance!

[graystonefarm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Illyria:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If anything else, F-8's horse would make a great trail horse with an experienced adult who has the money to take proper care him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not if he can't be ridden or handled. And from what I've seen not many people, adults or not, want to spend lots of money on a trail horse that may or may not be rideable.

Being good 80% of the time is not good enough if the other 20% he's too unpredictable or dangerous....being a bit bratty or spoiled/pushy is okay for most people to deal with, but outright trying to kick you or come at you is not okay. It might get better if he gets sent to a professional, but it might not. Not all horses want to please or want to have anything to do with humans, and who knows why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She never said he could not be ridden. She said he was great under saddle and great on trails. You have to remember that F-8 is a young rider. It sounds to me like he IS pushy and he has her number. Does that make it right to euthanize him????

I'll say it again. This horse is not suitable for f8 but there are a lot of experienced people out there that will work with a horse like this. Euthanizing should only be a VERY LAST RESORT. This horse has not been given a chance.