• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

supreme court stuff on cruelty videos

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • supreme court stuff on cruelty videos

    Court voids law aimed at animal cruelty videos
    By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer Mark Sherman, Associated Press Writer Tue Apr 20, 6:30 pm ET

    WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court, with only one dissenting vote, on Tuesday struck down a federal ban on videos that show graphic violence against animals. The ruling cheered free speech advocates, but it raised concerns that more animals will be harmed.

    The justices threw out the criminal conviction of Robert Stevens of Pittsville, Va., who was sentenced to three years in prison for videos he made about pit bull fights.

    The law was enacted in 1999 to limit Internet sales of so-called crush videos, which appeal to a certain sexual fetish by showing women crushing to death small animals with their bare feet or high-heeled shoes.

    The videos virtually disappeared once the measure became law, the government argued. The Bush administration used the law for the first time when it indicted Stevens in 2004.

    All 50 states have laws against animal cruelty, but the federal statute targeted the videos because it has been difficult to prosecute people who take part in violence against animals with a camera rolling, but not showing their faces.

    Chief Justice John Roberts, writing for the majority, said the law goes too far. He suggested that a measure limited to crush videos might be valid.

    A lawmaker said he was moving immediately on Roberts' suggestion. Rep. Elton Gallegly, R-Calif., said he is introducing legislation as early as Tuesday that would focus narrowly on crush videos. He said the bill would have bipartisan support and noted that the 1999 law passed both houses of Congress overwhelmingly and quickly worked.

    "There aren't too many thing you pass around here that actually work as well as this has," Gallegly said.

    In dissent, Justice Samuel Alito, a dog owner himself, said the harm animals suffer in dogfights is enough to sustain the law. Alito's dog, Zeus, a springer spaniel, is sometimes seen around the court being walked by Alito's wife, Martha-Ann.

    Alito also said the ruling probably will spur new crush videos because it has "the practical effect of legalizing the sale of such videos."

    Wayne Pacelle, president of the Humane Society of the United States, said hundreds of crush videos appeared on the Internet after a federal appeals court ruled in Stevens' favor in 2008. "This court ruling is going to accelerate that trend. That's why it's critical that the Congress take action," he said.

    Other animal rights groups, including the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and 26 states also joined the Obama administration in support of the law. The government sought a ruling that treated videos showing animal cruelty like child pornography — that is, not entitled to constitutional protection.

    But Roberts said the law could be read to allow the prosecution of the producers of films about hunting. And he scoffed at the administration's assurances that it would only apply the law to depictions of extreme cruelty.

    "But the First Amendment protects against the government," Roberts said. "We would not uphold an unconstitutional statute merely because the government promised to use it responsibly."

    Free speech advocates praised Tuesday's ruling.

    "Speech is protected whether it's popular or unpopular, harmful or unharmful," said David Horowitz, executive director of the Media Coalition. The group submitted a brief siding with Stevens on behalf of booksellers, documentary film makers, theater owners, writers groups and others.

    Stevens ran a business and Web site that sold videos of pit bull fights. He is among a handful of people prosecuted under the animal cruelty law, none of them for making crush videos. He noted in court papers that his sentence was 14 months longer than professional football player Michael Vick's prison term for running a dogfighting ring.

    A federal judge rejected Stevens' First Amendment claims, but the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia ruled in his favor.

    The administration persuaded the high court to intervene, but for the second time this year, the justices struck down a federal law on free speech grounds. In January, the court invalidated parts of a 63-year-old law aimed at limiting corporate and union involvement in political campaigns.

    The case is U.S. v. Stevens, 08-769.
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

  • #2
    Wow, then would this would mean that the videos made by the likes of Douglas Spink would be perfectly legal???

    Comment


    • #3
      So violence is ok, but God forbid we see Janet Jackson’s nipple?
      I wonder what the laws are in Canada?
      (Concerning Janet Jackson's nipples of course...)

      Comment


      • #4
        IMO, the Supreme Court is right (and I don't usually agree with Chief Justice Roberts on most things.) Congress wrote a vague law that was deemed unconstitutional. All Congress has to do (as the Supreme Court is suggesting) is to write a more precise law.

        I despise animal cruelty. I hope Congress will get it right next time as these "crush" videos are disgusting.
        Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
        http://www.ironwood-farm.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tkhawk View Post
          Wow, then would this would mean that the videos made by the likes of Douglas Spink would be perfectly legal???
          No.

          It means Congress wrote a very vague law that was deemed unconstitutional. The law could have been applied to any image or description.

          All media depicting or describing legal, regulated and lawful hunting. Rodeo. YouTube videos. Horses shows, field trials, outdoor writers and photographers, Anything. It could have been applied to any image or description that was deemed an image of cruelty. Even if the act depicted was LEGAL. The Court was right.

          Congress screwed up and wrote a law that would not pass muster. That's all. Maybe they'll do a better job next time.
          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
          -Rudyard Kipling

          Comment


          • #6
            This is the first time I have ever heard of crush videos. What a bunch of sickos.
            Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.

            Comment


            • #7
              ...Despite sharp ideological splits on major issues of the day, the case showed that on some cases a clear majority of justices can still unite behind one opinion. Recent speech cases have cut across ideological divides, with a conservative-liberal split on decisions concerning campaign finance and student speech, for example. But in this case, the court saw clear evidence of overreaching legislation that broadly banned an entire category of speech. The justices were unwilling to abandon longstanding constitutional doctrine against such broad bans, despite arguments that suppressing repellent speech can help fight criminal activity...

              ...Chief Justice Roberts, however, wrote that child pornography was a "special case" and that other forms of speech could not be banned based on "a simple cost-benefit analysis."

              "The First Amendment itself reflects a judgment by the American people that the benefits of its restrictions on government outweigh the costs," he wrote. "Our Constitution forecloses any attempt to revise that judgment simply on the basis that some speech is not worth it."

              The court observed that virtually all American jurisdictions outlaw animal cruelty, a tradition dating to the colonial era. But the prohibitions vary widely, from the District of Columbia, which outlaws hunting altogether, to Puerto Rico, which allows cockfighting. Thus, "an otherwise lawful image" of a permissible act in one state could become illegal if sold in another state, the court said...
              But the danger to our sport still exists.

              ..."Congress should act swiftly to make sure the First Amendment is not used as a shield for those committing barbaric acts of cruelty, and then peddling their videos on the Internet," said Wayne Pacelle, president of the Humane Society of the United States, in a statement...
              With groups like HSUS bending the ears of those idiots in Washington, anything they deem "as barbaric acts of cruelty" could be persecuted, like our horse shows, hunting videos, dog trials, even the kids playing with the family cat in the back yard.

              It is not surprising that the present administration would support this law. The First Amendment is not something they are comfortable with, expecially for those that have the audacity to disagree with them.

              The inmates are definitely in control inside the Washington beltway asylum!

              Click here for complete article.
              The inherent vice of Capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
              Winston Churchill

              Comment


              • #8
                we can only hope that a more precise law is written immediately and passed unamimously -- RIGHT NOW
                Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, the new law should be passed immediately. NOW.

                  But, hey, we wouldn't want to offend anyone's right to free speech. Yeesh.

                  but it's offensive to have a nativity scene. And I'm not even very religious.
                  This was foolish- I agree the law was vague, but how about they have a more specific one ready to go right away? Certainly not, because that might make sense, and the government is anything but sensible.

                  As if there isn't enough dumb cruelty, we have to have these crush videos.
                  My big man - April 27, 1986 - September 04, 2008-
                  You're with me every moment, my big red horse.

                  Be kinder than necessary, for everyone is fighting a battle of some kind.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Repeat after me: it is a good idea to criminalize the BEHAVIOR of doing cruel things to animals. It is a BAD idea to criminalize the SPEECH (which includes videos) that depicts that behavior.

                    While we detest those acts and the actors who engage in them, criminalizing speech that depicts the bad behavior is not the way to get at the behavior. It is appealing as a method for destroying this particular business, but it sets a bad precedent and there are other ways to get at the behavior.

                    That's the important distinction here.

                    It is instructive that the SC decided this case 8-1 or so. They don't agree about the color of the sky on that consistent a basis, in recent cases.
                    I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                    I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think under the law as it was written, you could get in trouble for videos such as the Canadian Slaughterhouse expose vids...
                      Right?

                      Sometimes you need to video animal cruelty to get it to stop.
                      ==================
                      Somehow my inner ten year old seems to have stolen my chequebook!

                      http://reriderandpony.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If one wants to discuss politics, it was the Bush administration that used this law and this whole thing came from that.

                        Although I do agree with Jswan. I guess if the law is that broad, then that is a major problem. I do not know about the law, but in this case, it seems to be about a video of pit bulls fighting. So why did they have to use this law? If existing cruelty laws are laready in place, can't they use those?

                        I guess what I am trying to understand is, did they overturn this because the law was so broad and could theoritically include anything anyone considers cruelty? Or are they saying that pit bull fighting and women crushing animals with their feet or heels or even Spinks is ok? In the article, it does say the republican congressman has already started work on a new bill..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tkhawk View Post
                          Wow, then would this would mean that the videos made by the likes of Douglas Spink would be perfectly legal???
                          animal porn?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chaila View Post
                            I think under the law as it was written, you could get in trouble for videos such as the Canadian Slaughterhouse expose vids...
                            Right?

                            Sometimes you need to video animal cruelty to get it to stop.
                            That was the impression I got from the OP.
                            Naturally, sickos get away, but the democratic judicial system is based on rather letting some of the guilties go before locking up one innocent...(yeah right! )

                            (and yes, the Bush administration passed a lot of laws with vague basis...)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Brandy76 View Post
                              But, hey, we wouldn't want to offend anyone's right to free speech. Yeesh.
                              Well, yes. It's not about offending someone - it's about the ability to speak freely.

                              You know, that's a pretty big deal. Matter of fact, you were exercising that right when you wrote your post complaining about the rights of OTHER people. So - your right to free speech should be protected but an outdoor writer who writes about hunting Elk should be put in jail?

                              Which is basically why the law was deemed unconstitutional. Because the LAW (which by the way was drafted by lawyers), could have been used to target innocent people and silence them. In fact, that was the main concern expressed by wildlife photographers, outdoor writers, journalists, sportsmen, farmers - all sorts of people. That's a legitimate concern.

                              Your beef is with Congress. Call your Congressman and/or Senator.

                              No one wants torture or crush videos to be legal. But I also don't think a photographer, blogger or journalist should be imprisoned because some prosecutor or animal rights groups wants to make an example of them.

                              This law was drafted poorly - and frankly a LOT of laws are drafted poorly.

                              That's why this case ended up where it did - and trust me - it's a victory for all of us even thought it means Congress will have to get off its collective ass and draft better legislation. It doesn't matter which party was in power when it was drafted - it was just drafted poorly.

                              ETA - seems a lot of you haven't been following this case - I have. Don't rely on soundbites from HSUS - get information from the source.
                              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                              -Rudyard Kipling

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Well I guess I am just trying to understand. I didn't know of the original law until I read this. I certainly would not wan't stuff to be banned just because someone, somewhwere deems it to be offensive. I live in L.A. and yes one can kind find all kind of kinky stuff. I am sure people would be offended by it-but that is no reason to ban it.

                                But here, I am just trying to get is, did they ban the making of the video itself? That is, if you make a video that is deemed offensive or falls under the law, then you could go to jail for that? If that is the case and especially if it is that broad, yes then it is good it got thrown out.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by tkhawk View Post

                                  I guess what I am trying to understand is, did they overturn this because the law was so broad and could theoritically include anything anyone considers cruelty?
                                  Yes. That's it in a nutshell. And it wasn't just videos. Documentaries, articles, blogs, photos, any form of communication or expression.
                                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                  -Rudyard Kipling

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    But according to what I get from this, even HSUS and PETA would be in deep doodoo publishing their videos of cruel activities.

                                    Free Speech: I may not like what you say but I defend your right to do so to the death.
                                    I forgot who said that.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Folks - this may help you understand a bit more. This is the opinion. There are plenty of lawyers and lay professionals on COTH who can help you understand some of the terminology.

                                      Don't rely on the newspapers for information because all you'll get is soundbites and hysteria.

                                      Read the actual opinion.

                                      http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-769.pdf
                                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                      -Rudyard Kipling

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        JSwan- gotcha. but, if you read my post, I said I agreed that the law was too vague and should have been changed.

                                        Yes, I remember when the law was first passed, AND I completely agree that it needs to be focussed on those who make a living on the likes of crush videos, dog fighting, etc. Elk hunting? Not so much. Really?

                                        That's why I agreed that the law needed to be changed. I am just concerned that it will again open the doors for the egregious cruelty.


                                        P.S. I do not "get my info from HSUS or PETA"
                                        My big man - April 27, 1986 - September 04, 2008-
                                        You're with me every moment, my big red horse.

                                        Be kinder than necessary, for everyone is fighting a battle of some kind.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X