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Scared For Riders Who Dont Wear Helmets

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  • Okay Guys, got one for ya. True story. Food for thought, question to ponder. A couple weeks ago, my sons friend, 22, manic depressive, struggled with disease since early teen, on Prozac or Paxil, tells his mother and sister he loves them, locks them in garage, goes into house and proceeds to blow his brains out on livingroom sofa. The NEW studies now show that this can be a side-affect of the drug. They are thinking of banning its use in England(?) So, studies are confusing (there is always a new one) and I think that this was what Tosca could have been talking about, but I could be wrong.At any rate, there are probably better issues to get vitrolic over than whether or not an adult chooses to wear a helmut.(helmet)

    [This message was edited by xegeba on May. 04, 2004 at 02:00 PM.]

    [This message was edited by xegeba on May. 04, 2004 at 02:07 PM.]

    Comment


    • Look, Tosca, you can hold whatever opinion you like. And it's certainly valid to ASK whether or not a helmet is "safe" if it splits or cracks upon impact.

      Your statement, though, to me, seemed more like a statement of "Well, they can't be safe if they crack," not a question seeking an answer.

      The approved helmets have been pretty darn exhaustively tested. There are plenty of reasons (albeit not necessarily good ones) not to wear an approved -- they're big and bulky, they're hot, they're ugly, they mess up your hair -- but safety doesn't seem to be one of them. And I really think it's kind of irresponsible to imply that it is... that's MY opinion.

      I do read the newspaper, by the way, and I'm well aware of the fact that products can have unintended safety risks. But had you done just a tiny bit of research, even just reading these boards, you'd know that approved helmets are DESIGNED to crack. That's a feature, not a bug.

      I wear an approved helmet because I grew up in Pony Club and I HAD to have one... and since I had it, I wore it. And when I needed to replace it, I figured if I was going to spend $100 on a helmet, I might as well buy the one that would actually do the best job of protecting my head.

      As far as other people go, though... hey, it's their choice. I just wish people who DON'T wear approveds would stop pretending that an unapproved is just as safe. In the vast majority of falls where you land on your head, it isn't, and I think the research backs that up pretty conclusively.

      Comment


      • Yes, Helmut Newton was a famous photographer. And I just wasted much work time looking for a good example of his work. Because I realized if you throw in some horses, and some helmets. Some of his work is very close to how I picture xegeba!

        Comment


        • UH OH.... Bea???? Can it be Lauren Bacall in her prime? Please?

          Comment


          • Exactly xegeba.

            LA, fast cars, cocktails, beautiful women, show jumpers, and helmets!

            Comment


            • I wear a helmet (99% of the time) because of my eventer roots I guess, or maybe because of some of the stories I have read here. But I surely don't worry about adults who chose not to. Especially if it were my trainer.

              The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde
              The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

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              • And Bea, let's not forget the men that buy me all that stuff.!!!!!!

                Comment


                • to Tosca - the research queen...
                  If you would conduct a little more research - like into the dynamics of impact, you would find that race cars are designed to fall apart - or "crack" in order to dissipate (sp) the energy of the impact.

                  Those of us who have approved/inspected & tested helmets have the information about them that tells us EVEN IF WE CANNOT SEE ANY DAMAGE - the helmet will be compromised if it suffers an impact.

                  Having worked in the automotive restraints industry for awhile and with other automotive engineering endeavors I can appreciate the differences between life-saving equipment versus injury preventive equipment. Wearing a seatbelt or having airbags does not mean a person will be without injury or even without SERIOUS injury. The restraint will, however, REDUCE the injury AND most likely PREVENT DEATH.
                  (Sort of like giving WNV or Strangles vaccinations, eh? The horse could still get the illness - but it most likely won't DIE from it and it will run a shorter course.)

                  Same for helmets. As I said in MY post... because I was NOT knocked unconscious, I was able to get better treatment for my obviously broken leg. Nope - the helmet didn't prevent my leg from being broken -but it DID prevent me from having a closed-head injury. I was ALSO able to tell the emergency team that I had drug allergies ... thereby saving any potential problem of them searching for a medic alert badge or bracelet.

                  If you protect your horses and pets with vaccinations, why not protect your brain from a closed head injury?
                  If you wear boots with heels to prevent your foot from sliding through the stirrup; or use breakaway safety stirrups, why not a helmet?
                  There are MANY safety pieces of equipment equestrians simply use without thinking about them.

                  I won't convince some to wear helmets, but I surely hope I can enlighten one other person to do the research for themselves - and hopefully - they will do COMPLETE research.

                  Comment


                  • xegeba, you might want to read my posts on this thread a bit more closely to understand my personal position on wearing helmets.

                    And I have no problem with tosca and whether he/she wears a helmet or not. Quite frankly I am one of the last folks anyone could accuse of being a helmet nazi. It's just that the reasoning on why a helmet could work even if it cracks upon impact isn't exactly one of our great unknowns out there. I mean wear one, don't wear one at your pleasuer (if you are an adult). Just don't point at the grass and say "BLUE"!

                    Somewhere in Texas a village is missing its idiot. www.seeyageorge.com
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                    Comment


                    • I'm thinking it's like when I got in a car accident. The car I was in was an '88 and we were hit by a '99 I believe, that or newer. The '99 just kind of caved in and the driver was unharmed, but mine kind of went BANG! and proceded to split up. I was no unharmed.

                      On another note, about half a year after that accident, I was in Phys. Therapy and beginning to be able to run again (about a week before I started riding again) I went outside to do some running steps, happy that I was, and it was raining which of course made the driveway terrible and I was wearing backless sneakers. My right ankle still wasn't very strong at all and it gave with the rain and the concrete surface and I fell straight onto my head HARD. I could barely move my jaw at all and it hurt SO badly, if you can imagine. That night as I tired to sleep in my room by the nurses station in the ER, I kept getting awakened by nurses and doctors, and I saw many that night- balance tests, check-ins, memory tests, CT scans, X-rays. It makes my head hurt just thinking about it, and thinking of it banging the concrete. I SHUDDER to think if I had been on a horse (yes, I know, odds are one won't hit concrete off a horse but there's a possiblity).

                      -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
                      Honored founder of the Teen Clique, Homeschool Clique, Boarding School Clique, and Proud to be a Mushroom Head/ Wear a Helmet Clique; member of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique
                      <><

                      Comment


                      • I really don't care if anyone else rides with a helmet on or not. I do. That's the way I am. And if you ride MY horse, you wear a helmet. Period. If you don't want to wear a helmet, then you don't ride my horse. And everyone that knows me respects that.

                        "Life is not about how fast you run, or how high you jump, but how well you bounce."
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        Full-time Lurker, Part-time Poster

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tosca4711:
                          I am in the research biz. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                          Clearly in nothing having anything whatsoever to do with the most basic of physics. If so, you would not have made such ludicrous statements. A helmet cracks upon impact, the person riding ends up without any head injury, therefore because the helmet cracked it obviously didn't work? I'm trying to figure out how you logically came to that conclusion.

                          Originally posted by RoyalTRider:
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm thinking it's like when I got in a car accident. The car I was in was an '88 and we were hit by a '99 I believe, that or newer. The '99 just kind of caved in and the driver was unharmed, but mine kind of went BANG! and proceded to split up. I was not unharmed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ding Ding Ding! RoyalTRider gets it... Modern cars are designed with "crumple zones" and "safety cages". The exterior parts of modern cars are designed to literally crumple in and absorb the impact of the collision so that your body doesn't (much like a helmet and your head), up to the point of the steel cage around the passenger compartment that protects the physical space you are in. People in older cars with more structural integrity (i.e. big honkin' steel frames) are more likely to be injured from the impact, while their car may have minimal damage.

                          Mr. WL has a 1978 Toyota LandCruiser that he has restored, and he LOVES to drive it all over the place, even on long camping trips in the desert or the Sierras. He always tells me not to worry, that the truck is 7000 lbs of pure steel with the structural integrity of an elephant. Which is exactly what worries me... if he gets in a bad collision, that truck is going to emerge virtually unscathed, and Mr. WL is going to require a long stay in the hospital, if he doesn't end up dead.

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
                            Oh, as an aside, I think the WORST statistical analyses I've seen have been on THIS board, when someone who doesn't want to wear an approved helmet justifies their decision by saying "Well, my friend Susie had a REALLY bad fall once while wearing a hunt cap, and she was just fine! So I don't see why I need to wear one." Gee, what is that, a study of one? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            I'd agree that's an extremely weak arguement, but my sense is that you see a little more of the same trotted out as a reason to wear a helmet (ie "my friend susy's life was saved by her helmet..."). The only difference is that it's taken seriously when safety advocates spout nonsense.

                            I also think 'emergency room' stats are even weaker than anecdotal evidense. That's like trying to estimate the probability of winning the lottery by going to the lottery commission office to see if anyone arrives to collect a prize. duh.

                            Comment


                            • I came back to say one thing. The front and back of modern cars are made to crumple to absorb an impact. The car is not supposed to break apart. If someone hits you on the driver or passenger door and the car breaks inward the person sitting there is dead. This happens a lot. If the car should break in half and go careening down the highway, this is also very bad for the person in the car, especially if there is traffic following. You are then vulnerable to being hit directly by anything heading in your direction.

                              I don't understand this vitriol, as I never told anyone what to do, or attacked anyone.

                              By the way, the comments regarding the safely of Prozac are correct. This was said to be a very safe drug at first. The research showing it was not safe was buried in order to keep it on the market. This also happened with HRT.


                              Tosca

                              Comment


                              • Comment


                                • I want to be sure that everyone notes that I mentioned RACE CARS ... not typical passenger cars. I'm talking about dragsters, stock cars, grandprix, etc. They are designed to fly apart upon impact - thereby dissipating the energy of the impact.

                                  Modern passenger cars are designed with different safety standards.

                                  Comment


                                  • Well, what do you want to talk about Eddina???Wake up!!! DMK, I didn't get what you got from her posts, but I find Calling the grass blue, when my husband tells me it's green is healthy for my heart, not to mention the fact that it drives him whacko.

                                    Comment


                                    • Tosca, I'm sure everyone would agree that a helmet that cracked in half like an egg and fell off your head would probably not be a good thing. However, I believe what people are referring to is the fact that when a helmet shell has a crack in it after an impact, that's not a sign that the helmet isn't safe -- it's a sign that it was doing its job.

                                      El Grande...

                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I also think 'emergency room' stats are even weaker than anecdotal evidense. That's like trying to estimate the probability of winning the lottery by going to the lottery commission office to see if anyone arrives to collect a prize. duh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      No, that wouldn't be a good way to estimate the probability of winning the lottery, but it probably would be a good way of determining, say, how black, white, or Hispanic people rank in their frequency as lottery winners. Similarly, emergency room stats are probably a generally good indicator of which sports are "more dangerous."

                                      I don't think anyone claims that emergency room statistics are necessarily a good indicator of the probability of being in a riding accident, but they might be the only stats that are readily available. No one knows precisely how many people ride, or even how many horses are in the country. Establishing precise probablity in a sport that is so frequently a "backyard" activity is pretty darn hard, I would imagine. It's not like, say, estimating the probability of being in a car accident... we know how many drivers there are in the country, and how many cars... because they're all licensed and registered.

                                      Not that ANY of this has anything to do with the relative safety of different helmets...

                                      Comment


                                      • Tosca, no one is upset with you for saying research "results" can be wonky and misleading, if not downright fibbed. What has everyone up in arms is your assertion that an approved helmet is no more protective than an unapproved, and citing your friend's broken helmet but un-broken head as evidence of that. It just doesn't make any sense.

                                        Now, if your friend's head had cracked but the helmet hadn't, I'd be more likely to listen to your argument that the helmet might be less-than-effective at its intended purpose.

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No, that wouldn't be a good way to estimate the probability of winning the lottery, but it probably would be a good way of determining, say, how black, white, or Hispanic people rank in their frequency as lottery winners. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          OK but unless you know how many of each group played and didnt win, it's a big so-what. A REALLY big so-what. It's also whats at the heart of every helmet advocate's arguement, here and elsewhere.

                                          Comment

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