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Say WHAT?!?!?

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  • Say WHAT?!?!?

    So, I was reading through the prize list of a show to be held in our area in May. I get down to the bottom of the entry form and see this paragraph:

    "No competitor may withdraw a horse from a licensed competition after it has commenced, or remove them from the show grounds, without permission of the show secretary. (GR 805)"



    Now, since this is a USEF recognized competition, I assumed that "GR 805" referred to USEF General Rule 805, so I looked it up in the 2010 Rule book. GR 805 has to do with the disposition of challenge trophies and the proper handling thereof. So, I go to the discipline section of the USEF rule book, thinking I'll find it there. Nope - no such rule number for that discipline.

    So, I ask myself; if one signs this entry form, agreeing to abide by its contents, does that mean that one cannot remove one's own horse from the competition or the show grounds, without asking the show secretary? Has anyone else ever encountered this "rule"? Gotta say, in my several decades of showing in several disciplines, I have yet to encounter a rule that says I can't withdraw from a competition, or leave the grounds without asking someone's permission.
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

  • #2
    O.o I don't even know that's legally enforceable! Unless they mean you must NOTIFY the secretary that you're withdrawing/leaving, I don't think they CAN prohibit you from removing your own property (or property for which you're the legal agent) from the grounds!
    Author Page
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    • #3
      I was reading the first part as being you can't withdraw your horse from a class after the class has started, but the wording is vague enough to go both ways.

      As for the second part - maybe it's a way to cut down on theft? You have to ask the secretary and prove ownership of the horse before removing it?

      Just some thoughts, which are probably very wrong.
      Enjoying the scenery out on the trails with my 1993 American Quarter Horse mare, Mollys Baby Pearls.

      Comment


      • #4
        Which show is this, ESG? DDC? Austin?

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          dressurpferd, I PMed you.

          Honestly, I don't know how anyone could possibly enforce this paragraph, and why anyone would include it in the prize list. Methinks someone's overstepped their bounds.
          In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
          A life lived by example, done too soon.
          www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

          Comment


          • #6
            I would send them my money. Attached, would be an affidavit outlining my denial of their entirely made up ruling. Based on the GR number they quoted.

            Then, I would see if they didn't want my entry fees.

            If they didn't, that would be the end of my patronage to their shows.

            If its a local show, and I was a medium level trainer with about 3 to 5 students plus me and my assistant trainer entering 3 to 7 classes each, and had been doing so for about the last 7 years, it might mean something to them. Especially if I went out of my way to make all my points for my yearly state championships and reserved championships in jumpers and dressage at other venues in the region.

            It would be a personal thing I wouldn't mind putting the energy out for. If you asked. me.

            Just imagining what my trainer, who performs about at the level I described, would do. And, she'd do it with a chucklel. AR, she'd say, stop by tonight, we need to make some changes to the website calendar for the season. And, you know the ad we took out in the prize list for such and such? Rescind it, and put it in Such and Such, we'll to out to Mystic instead. And put a stop payment on the check and send them a letter from Abe (the attorney) telling them why.

            I would say, yeah, more work for me, I get a free lesson in exchange for this bonus work, its all great. Hooray.
            Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Funny you should mention that, AR. This venue used to host at least two USDF dressage shows per year, and they were always well attended. Then, about ten years ago, they stopped, and have only offered horse trials (both schooling and recognized) until now. JMO, but not an auspicious re-entry into the recognized show circuit, what with this bogus (?) paragraph and the ridiculously exorbitant show fees ($65/day grounds fee? ). Doubt it will be well attended. Then again, if locals are hungry enough for a new venue,.........................
              In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
              A life lived by example, done too soon.
              www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

              Comment


              • #8
                it might have to do with drug testing??
                "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                carolprudm

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Possibly, but wouldn't that would have been explained in "GR 805", if that were the case?

                  Scary stuff.
                  In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                  A life lived by example, done too soon.
                  www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, I just did a google search using GR 805 + horse + grounds and came up with LOTS of shows quoting this rule

                    http://www.google.com/search?q=gr+80...e+grounds&rlz=

                    I'm looking further to find the actual rule.
                    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Spruce meadows will not let a horse off the property after a show has started with out a release fromthe show office.
                      http://www.facebook.com/Albertagrooms

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ok, did the research. General Rule 805 did indeed read like this all the way through 2007. In 2008, the rules were completely rewritten and this one seems to have disappeared.

                        But if you go to USEF.org and look up the Rules, then click on ANY year before 2008, you will find that GR 805 read:

                        GR805 Elimination & Withdrawal from Classes & Competition
                        (See also GR117).
                        1. No exhibitor may withdraw horses from a Licensed Competition after it has
                        commenced, or remove them from the competition grounds, without the permission of the
                        competition secretary.
                        2. If an exhibitor voluntarily removes a horse from the ring without the permission of the
                        judge, the Show Committee will disqualify the exhibitor and all his entries from all future
                        classes at that competition and all prizes and entry fees for the entire competition will be
                        forfeited.
                        3. Any horse leaving the ring without the exhibitor’s volition is deprived of an award in that
                        class. See also division rules for other causes of elimination.
                        Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I believe release from the show office before departing
                          has to do with possible drug testing which can be done
                          to a random sample of the entrants as well as winners.
                          Robin from Dancing Horse Hill
                          Elmwood, Wisconsin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ESG, you have an email, COTH won't let me send a PM right now, my PM's are all screwed up.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by trilogy View Post
                              Spruce meadows will not let a horse off the property after a show has started with out a release fromthe show office.
                              Yes, and many FEI competitions do have and enforce that rule. But this isn't an FEI sanctioned competition, hence my question.

                              Sonesta, I should have known that you'd ferret out the answer. Thank you. Another mystery solved.
                              In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                              A life lived by example, done too soon.
                              www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The facility is not the ones putting on the show in this case. Another person is just renting the facility and is the one responsible for organizing and running the show.

                                That said, I about choked when I got to the $65 per day grounds fee! Holy cow. Guess they want people to get a stall instead of trailering in. But, I would not leave my horse in those stalls overnight.

                                I was definitely going to enter until I figured it was going to cost me $195 (or maybe it was $180) to do 2 classes on one day of the show. Am still considering it but seems awfully pricey.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  And if you want a day stall instead of paying a grounds fee, that's $80! Sorry, but I didn't pay that for a day stall at WEF, and PH sure ain't Wellington!

                                  I have a friend who lives about 8 miles from the venue. She wanted to take her youngster to do the Intro classes, but isn't a USEF or USDF member. Between the grounds fee, ($65), non-member fees ($30 for USEF, $20 for USDF), office fee ($30), USEF fee ($15) and two classes at $35 each, her total for one day's showing fun is a whopping $230!

                                  USEF and USDF need a reality check. IF they really want to encourage more participants to try the sport, they shouldn't make the non-member fees punitive.
                                  In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                  A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                  www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Or your friend can go to the schooling show at Topsider that Sunday and do the same 2 classes for $46 ($18/class and $10 ground fee.) Last one cost me $45 as a BACH member and that included a day stall.

                                    Of course, she will have to drive a little farther.

                                    I do think they are trying to get everyone to get stabling for the weekend because the $65 grounds fee PER DAY and $80 day stall fee PER DAY is absolutely ridiculous.

                                    And yeah, it was $180 for me to do 2 classes paying the grounds fee or $195 with a day stall. I did the Topsider recognized show 2 weeks ago and it was $130 for 2 classes with a day stall. Much more reasonable.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Well, we are about to start having some schooling shows here at Sonesta Farms. They will be similar to those held at Topsider. Stay tuned!

                                      I don't think I'll be charging $65 for grounds fee though!
                                      Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Spruce meadows has plenty of shows that are not FEI shows.
                                        http://www.facebook.com/Albertagrooms

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