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Need Legal Advice on Sale of my Horse

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  • #41
    I will keep all posted. I have a biopsy today on my thyroid. Once I am not stressing over those results, I will go the legal route for advice. This horse was given to me as a gift, again, in lieu of an engagement ring, so I am curious how that will effect the outcome. Anyway, if anyone becomes aware of a wonderful horse in need of a wonderful home, keep me in mind!!

    LesGarcons: I liked your idea. Thank You!!

    Comment


    • #42
      If he sold your engagement ring while you were sick, I think that would be a problem legally. SO not a lawyer, so I have no license to get revoked!

      Best of luck to you! You will end up with a wonderful horse at the end of this! I can feel it.
      ==================
      Somehow my inner ten year old seems to have stolen my chequebook!

      http://reriderandpony.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by piccolittle View Post
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law)


        "The elements of a conversion cause of action are:
        the plaintiff has clear legal ownership or right to possession of the property at the time of the conversion;
        the defendant's conversion by a wrongful act or disposition of plaintiff's property rights;
        there are damages resulting from the conversion."

        Remedies include damages or recovery of the property. Look into your actual property rights regarding the horse and the available tort actions in your state.
        Did the OP get this? I think this is exactly what she was looking for. Gives her a direction, anyway.
        Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by FineAlready View Post

          My original reply has nothing to do with being angry that someone is looking for "free" legal advice.
          I think it may be more helpful for you to look at it this way. I think when people pose these sort of questions, they are looking for what people's personal and diverse experiences have been. They are not looking for free legal advice.

          There is no harm in hearing of other people's stories or getting the take from people and then going to a lawyer armed with questions. There is also nothing wrong with hearing of other people's experiences and deciding it just ain't worth it to pursue for whatever reason - be it financial or emotional.

          Let's face it. Not all attorney's are created equal. You can not have too much information before you go see one for advice. Granted, much of that 'information' may be incorrect - but then that is where the attorney proves their worth.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by sketcher View Post
            You can not have too much information before you go see one for advice. Granted, much of that 'information' may be incorrect - but then that is where the attorney proves their worth.
            Not necessariliy. A client may have such a rigid expectation that they are entitled to a certain relief based on others' information that the attorney cannot work with them to get the relief that the actual facts/law warrants - which may be WAY less than the clients expects. Sometimes what others have gone through has nothing to do with what a client goes through, but the client cannot see that and won't hear otherwise. It may be good for moral support, but that may be about it.

            Comment


            • #46
              Our legal separation papers are in the hands of the mediator right now and won't be ready for a few weeks, but I don't intend to sign them until I know what is possible with this case.
              Do "legal separation papers" divide marital property? (We don't have such a thing in my state.) If so, definitely get thee to a lawyer before you sign anything!

              As for what's possible - eeesh, hard to say. In SC, if a judge were to accept that horse=engagement ring - and that's a big "if" - then you might be entitled to reimbursement for the value of the horse.

              But I could also see a judge ruling the horse was marital property, since marital funds were used in its support and maintenance. (Engagement rings don't eat or need the vet, which is why I'm not sure a judge will buy the analogy that horse=ring.) If the horse is marital property, then you're still entitled to part of its value. You could maybe work out repayment as a cash payout or perhaps you could take it out in trade for another marital asset that your husband hasn't alienated already.

              As for getting back the actual horse? Much tougher question. The buyer might be protected as a bona fide purchaser for value - if she bought in innocence of the circumstances that the horse wasn't your husband's to sell. If not, then you might be able to void the sale. But that's not family law - that's an action in equity in civil court.

              But the important thing? If those papers have anything to do with splitting up property, you need to get actual legal advice from a family court lawyer in your state before you sign them!
              I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

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              • #47
                Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
                As for getting back the actual horse? Much tougher question. The buyer might be protected as a bona fide purchaser for value - if she bought in innocence of the circumstances that the horse wasn't your husband's to sell. If not, then you might be able to void the sale. But that's not family law - that's an action in equity in civil court.

                But the important thing? If those papers have anything to do with splitting up property, you need to get actual legal advice from a family court lawyer in your state before you sign them!
                This. You should definately let your divorce attorney and the mediator know that you want you horse back. I think you could still argue that the horse and the expected upkeep of that horse was a gift and therefor not marital property.

                In the mean time, if you really want your horse back, don't wait and rely on the police or a sheriff being able to help you with some type of criminal charge. It is unclear that there would really be a criminal charge and even if there was, unlikely that the police will want to get involved in a domestic dispute that is currently being worked out in divorce proceedings. If the woman that has the horse was "in on it" or their was no real "sale", you may be able to have it voided and get the horse back. But you will need a lawyer.
                ____________________________________________
                http://community.webshots.com/user/KaraAD

                Comment


                • #48
                  I hope for your sake that since this horse was your "engagement ring" that you do have legal recourse. In the interim, perhaps gather together everything you have that can provide proof of ownership such as registration papers and Coggins forms with you listed as owner.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Hmmmm, to me a gift is a gift and since you married the guy it should be irrevocable! From watching these court shows I have learned that if you're given a ring and you don't marry the guy (for whatever reason) you are obliged to give the ring back to him.... But once you've married him--that is that.

                    I would love to know if your husband represented himself as the owner of the horse and whether the woman realized he was not the owner of record. To me, when you sell something you know belongs to someone else (in my State) that is known as "fraudulent conversion". I know because my first ex-husband sold something he knew was not mine and my friend seriously thought about suing him (but he coughed up the money he had gotten for the item and everyone was happy).

                    Also, if the woman knew the horse was yours and she bought it anyway I think that might qualify as "collusion" to deprive you of your property.

                    At any rate, it was pretty despicable of this guy to basically kick you while you were down..... You think you know someone and they do something like this.... I don't know what I'd do if my husband had done something like that to me; it makes me crazy when I think someone is screwing with the health, welfare and/or safety of my animals....

                    Go see that lawyer and explain this the way you explained it to us. Maybe there's a chance you can regain your horse--I'd certainly take a stab at it--what have you got to lose???

                    Please let us know the outcome....
                    "Don't blame Hogg or the other teens. The adults are supposed to know better. If only we could find any." ~Tom Nichols, professor of national security affairs at the Naval War College~

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Go see a lawyer, good luck with getting the horse back.....and if the lawyer has chest pains or SOB-make sure you CYA before you take action! HAHA !! Like we nurses pay much attention to that if there is a dire need for our expertise! If we stopped and worried every time we were in a situation where a person emergently needed our help......we would be a pretty sad lot, now wouldn't we? Yes, we do think about the legalties, but we still take action......)
                      "The only easy day was yesterday" USN SEALs
                      courtesy of LCDR K.R.W, USN (ret) RIP, 4/10/09

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Cherry View Post
                        Hmmmm, to me a gift is a gift and since you married the guy it should be irrevocable! From watching these court shows I have learned that if you're given a ring and you don't marry the guy (for whatever reason) you are obliged to give the ring back to him.... But once you've married him--that is that.
                        That is not the situation in all states and why the OP needs to consult with an attorney in her state. OP, whereever you are located, Google your county name along with "bar association" and look on the page for the legal referral service. Most have them and you can be matched quickly with a lawyer who specializes in the field you need as well as has agreed to do a free or very low cost initial consultation.

                        And remember that television court shows are not legal courts that follow the laws of any particular state. Most often they are conducted as binding arbitration were the "judge" can make equitable decisions that are different that what might be found in a trial court.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          OP, very sorry to hear of your awful situation and I hope you do manage to resolve it. I have no advice as have never come across this particular scenario before. I do think it would be worthwhile to contact a lawyer to see where you stand on this one. There's a few online lawyer sites where you can ask questions so maybe do that first? And yes, like you OP, if I actually did have experience of this then I would pass on any information that I thought might be of use to you. You never know, this is a large BB and maybe someone has been in the exact same situation and will come along and give you their experience. Best of luck.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Seven View Post
                            That is not the situation in all states and why the OP needs to consult with an attorney in her state. OP, whereever you are located, Google your county name along with "bar association" and look on the page for the legal referral service. Most have them and you can be matched quickly with a lawyer who specializes in the field you need as well as has agreed to do a free or very low cost initial consultation.

                            And remember that television court shows are not legal courts that follow the laws of any particular state. Most often they are conducted as binding arbitration were the "judge" can make equitable decisions that are different that what might be found in a trial court.


                            And might I also add that Wikipedia is NOT a valid legal source.

                            Good luck!


                            Comment


                            • #54
                              FRANKNBEANS: Thank you....you said that well. If I worried everytime I assisted a rider who was injured after falling off their horse over he past twenty years, there would be quite a few seriously injured people out there who didn't think it necessary to go have an xray or CT scan! My license never occured to me during times of emergencies outside of my workplace...people did!! (and I intervened or gave advice even in non-emergent situations)

                              Again, you all have given me great insight and I appreciate it. I will keep you posted and continue to welcome anymore advice-in whatever form it comes in....and I promise...I won't hold you to it if your advice is wrong!!

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                P.S. to all of the nurses and medical people who did respond to my post: isnt it funny that we could be held accountable for not helping someone in need????

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by TWF View Post
                                  I have been in a similar situation. As I was hosptialized and in intensive care...my husband (estranged) and others very close to me and my farm shipped my mares out of state. I never saw them again. I was never paid for the imported 2X DAD winner,Ster mare and the mare I bred by Silver medalist Starman out of a Lucky Boy mare. Everyone but the "buyers" knew me personally. I never knew where the mares had gone..it was agonizing. A foal born to my own mare was registered as they claimed the mare had been leased! In the end after months/years of legal proceedings and a divorce....(PA is a Commonwealth State) I was forced to sign over the papers to my own beloved mares.

                                  They went to Michigan. I was heart sick they were gone. My own site was used to check out the horses! It was one of the worst betrayals I have known.


                                  Maybe a writ of replevin? Never sure how that worked. it was a tterm thrown around in my case.

                                  You can "lawyer up" but in the end in my expereince...the parties with the horse and their bottom line will determine the outcome.

                                  Good Luck.
                                  (((((((((((hugs))))))))))) I am so sorry that this happened to you, and by those that were close to you as well. It is theft, and I don't see how it can be viewed any other way in your case or in the case of the OP.
                                  http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                                  She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Like we nurses pay much attention to that if there is a dire need for our expertise! If we stopped and worried every time we were in a situation where a person emergently needed our help......we would be a pretty sad lot, now wouldn't we?
                                    Big difference. In the nurse's situation, s/he is on the scene and has the facts before her. In the lawyer's situation, s/he's not present and only knows what s/he understands from one person's perception of the relevant facts.

                                    Look, it's not that we don't want to help. It's that we can't. I know I can't because I don't know NY State law. I'm not licensed to practice in NY state. And I can't question the OP to elicit facts which the OP may not know are important but which may be determinative to the case.

                                    I've had a long day in mediation, so I'm cranky. But I've just spent the best part of my day in a courthouse where the majority of the lawyers were there pro bono to help indigent parents work out their issues with child protective services.

                                    We lawyers are not all green-blooded money-grubbing heartless legalists with horns and hooves. And nurses aren't all Florence Nightingale, either. I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

                                    Told y'all I was cranky.
                                    I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by sketcher View Post
                                      I think it may be more helpful for you to look at it this way. I think when people pose these sort of questions, they are looking for what people's personal and diverse experiences have been. They are not looking for free legal advice.

                                      There is no harm in hearing of other people's stories or getting the take from people and then going to a lawyer armed with questions. There is also nothing wrong with hearing of other people's experiences and deciding it just ain't worth it to pursue for whatever reason - be it financial or emotional.

                                      Let's face it. Not all attorney's are created equal. You can not have too much information before you go see one for advice. Granted, much of that 'information' may be incorrect - but then that is where the attorney proves their worth.
                                      I'm an attorney and that's how I see it. I take these types of posts as people trying to collect information on personal experience. Sometimes I post on this type of thread, sometimes I don't. I would never come on and say "I'm an attorney, here's my advice"--I also *never* send people to Martindale to look for an attorney. They'll end up making calls to 10 attorneys at Cravath (this is an inside joke for you non-lawyers) and waste valuable time while a statute of limitations potentially ticks away. I encourage people to reach out to an attorney they know and trust--even if it's not the right type of attorney--and ask that person for a referral--or if you don't know an attorney, ask a friend you know has a good outcome with an attorney and call that person's attorney and ask for a referral. I get requests for referrals from time-to-time and I put a lot of time and thought into helping people find counsel with the appropriate skill set for their problem. I guess I try to be a decent person first, and an attorney second.
                                      www.quiethavenfarm.com

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                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by REH View Post
                                        <SNIP>and waste valuable time while a statute of limitations potentially ticks away.

                                        I encourage people to reach out to an attorney they know and trust--even if it's not the right type of attorney--and ask that person for a referral--or if you don't know an attorney, ask a friend you know has a good outcome with an attorney and call that person's attorney and ask for a referral.<SNIP>
                                        THIS.

                                        absolutely the best way to get the right attorney.

                                        Best of luck to the OP in getting as much as possible of her life straightened out.

                                        Oh, and {{{hugs}}} sounds like you could use a few!
                                        Homesick Angels Farm
                                        breeders of champion Irish Draught Sporthorses
                                        standing Manu Forti's Touch Down RID
                                        www.IrishHuntersandJumpers.com

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                                        • #60
                                          I'm no lawyer, but I thought I remembered reading something about gifts, and once given, the giver has no recourse to retrieve them.. or disperse of them... short of theft. Could your horse be construed as a gift? Also, if you had the funds in reserve to pay for the cost of upkeep (board, etc), maybe that would be relevant info for your lawyer, who could demonstrate it was a malicious act and not one of financial desperation to pay for his sick wife's medical bills?

                                          Also, what kind of bill of sale is there? If your husband acted rashly, it's possible he didn't get an airtight arrangement... I mean, how many posts have been on here that talk about the finer and essential details of lease/sale/board contracts? Similarly, if he did the "sell it for $1" thing, haven't people on here before said they've heard of judges who reverse the sale because it was obviously a tricky trick and not a genuine sale where a fair economy was in place... or something like that.

                                          Finally, this just sucks for you. I hope you continue to mend, physically, and I hope there is some sort of justice for you- ideally, I'd love for you to get the horse back, but if that's not possible I hope you get excellent compensation for your loss in your divorce proceedings, etc, and that karma takes care of what is left

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