What a mess:

[tkhawk]

I didn't start to eat pig until I came to the US. Even then it was by accident , as I didn't know what bacon was-I just assumed it was cow or goat!!!

In India, they let pigs roam the streets. Many people also do not have toilets and do their "business" outside. Guess who the clean up crew is-pigs! Once you have seen that, it is quite difficult to eat a pig. Heck if I had known bacon was a pig, I probably still would not eat it. But I think the ones here are fed well on regular food!

[Alagirl]

I didn't start to eat pig until I came to the US. Even then it was by accident , as I didn't know what bacon was-I just assumed it was cow or goat!!!

In India, they let pigs roam the streets. Many people also do not have toilets and do their "business" outside. Guess who the clean up crew is-pigs! Once you have seen that, it is quite difficult to eat a pig. Heck if I had known bacon was a pig, I probably still would not eat it. But I think the ones here are fed well on regular food!

That is one of the reasons pig is not 'asil'/pure in many cultures and therefore not fit to be eaten.

[Bluey]

No nobody -at least nobody I know-thinks farmers are some evil creatures. Nor do any of us think that just having multiple cows is bad. Have ten thousand cows for all I care, just with some room.

But with chicken and pigs-I agree it came about due to pure optimal planning to provide the most at the cheapest price. But still that does not address the fact that they are shut up all their lives without being able to move much. Again animals as pure commodities-where effeciency is the only consideration and not that the animal is a living breathing thing that does something other than laying eggs or giving birth to pigs. This is where it gets dangerous into animal rights. Because people do care enough about them and if many farmers groups wan't to merely dismiss them out of hand as some wacko AR groups, then the line between them begins to blur and you have HSUS masquerading as a welfare group when it is an AR group. But CA is not the only state with such laws-multiple states from AZ to FL all have them too.

No one you know talks bad about farmers and farming?
You must not listen to the regular, every day newscasters and those talk shows.
Any more, farmers are seen as rapers of the land, polluters, crude, rude and crass second class citizens that, if they handle animals, are also animal abusers.
Everyone can see that and hear the stories, for what I hear, Oprah, that talk show celebrity, is one of the worst, not surprising, being a friend of the HSUS president.
Oh, she sounds oh so caring and worried, but the idea is to put doubts of how farmers do things in the minds of the general, clueless public, that will believe what she has to say just because she said it.

The trouble with the halo around the demands the HSUS is making of animal agriculture is that the way things are are the best we can make them for each individual animal and purpose for that animals, for what we know to do at that time, they know it and know that with their demands, that sound so logical and caring, they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and no one will catch onto their disruptive, but oh so sensible sounding demands.

The cages for nursing pigs are designed to save pigs, even if the sows have to be confined for that short period.
A trade off, for what pig raisers say, I don't know, between having live pigs and confined sows, or dead pigs, as sows are known to be poor mothers and in groups extremely aggressive to each other.
There are new studies that, when providing the sow's environment with certain pherormones, they stay calm and so they can raise their piglets in groups, without killing too many of them.
Some pig company already has some percentage of their pigs in those programs, so there is more ongoing research all the time, to do what is best for all, the animals and the many uses we are making of them.

Ever take care of any chickens?
You will find out in a hurry why caging them is questionable, but leaving them running around more so, if you want to stay in the chicken and egg business.

We had 15 laying hens in a large yard and chicken house and once in a while, there was one less, as chickens are won't to do, they pecked one into injury and if you didn't catch it soon, killed her.
If you raise chickens by the thousands, you really need to find the best way to do so without those chicken traits coming into play big time, where you lose them by the hundreds.

Do the chickens know or care where they live, or is it us who impose our ideas of how a chicken should have a fulfilled life?
That is still being studied and debated in the chicken industry itself.

If you ever really look into agriculture, you will find, past the bashing ongoing continuously in the press at every real and imaginary slight, that agriculture has been one of the most progressive industries, that has given us the society we have today, where few can provide for so many so well, reliably, as safely as possible and in aboundant and variety never seen in this world before.

Now, you may or not like it, it is not all rainbows and roses, as some say, but it is one of the success stories of the last century, along with others, that let us today be typing and discussing this on our forums on computes and the internet.
We really should be thankful that only 2% of our citizens can provide some basic necessities and services for the rest of the 98%.

You know, getting back to the myths of factory farming, I still hear all the time how we raise cattle in pens all their lives.
I wonder what those cows and calves everyone driving down any highway can see come into that picture, why people choose to believe some propaganda, when with their own eyes they can see it is not so?
Dissasociation perhaps?

The HSUS is making seemingly sensible demands, as you believe.
To those that know how to raise and care for those animals, that have spend years doing their best as it is, they know that the animal rights groups idea is not to make lives better for the animals, they don't care about that, but to disrupt animal agriculture enough to make it eventually impossible to do business.

That is the real goal of all those animal rights seemingly innocuous demands and that is why there are states trying to come with their own boards of agriculture and rules that make sense, so people can keep raising their animals and not be handicapped by the animal rights groups demands, that many times are truly not in the best interest of the animals, they just make them sound so to people that don't know better.

There are many laws already in the books and the agriculture groups have for many years been doing all kinds of innovations and have care and welfare boards, long before animal rights groups started using them as a whipping boy.

Is there still much to do to curb any kind of animal abuse?
Of course, so is in preventing elder and child and spousal abuse.

We really need to be working to curb abuse where we find it, but we need to do so with sensible ideas, not following animal rights agendas, not if we want to keep our rights to use animals, including our horses.

[tkhawk]

No one you know talks bad about farmers and farming?
You must not listen to the regular, every day newscasters and those talk shows.
Any more, farmers are seen as rapers of the land, polluters, crude, rude and crass second class citizens that, if they handle animals, are also animal abusers.
Everyone can see that and hear the stories, for what I hear, Oprah, that talk show celebrity, is one of the worst, not surprising, being a friend of the HSUS president.
Oh, she sounds oh so caring and worried, but the idea is to put doubts of how farmers do things in the minds of the general, clueless public, that will believe what she has to say just because she said it. .

Ok I never did watch TV much. After I moved back to L.A, decided not to get a TV and so far I don't miss it. I don't care much for talk show hosts and neither do many people I know. It is scripted. They have a whole team gathering material, formatting it to fit in the time frame, pollsters-just a whole team. They cater to an audience and I think many of those people spouting off don't really beleive what they are saying-well at least some of them. It is just a well paying gig to them.

I don't care much for Oprah and nor do I care or know who she is friends with. The only show I really enjoyed was Jerry Springer. Not the same after Steve the bodyguard left the show to form his own show! But at least Springer is more genuine. Apart from that I like scifi and animal shows-but never watch those cable news or even regular news. The internet is more than enough. But you are giving them far too much credit and giving regular folks lot less credit.

The cages for nursing pigs are designed to save pigs, even if the sows have to be confined for that short period.
A trade off, for what pig raisers say, I don't know, between having live pigs and confined sows, or dead pigs, as sows are known to be poor mothers and in groups extremely aggressive to each other.
There are new studies that, when providing the sow's environment with certain pherormones, they stay calm and so they can raise their piglets in groups, without killing too many of them.
Some pig company already has some percentage of their pigs in those programs, so there is more ongoing research all the time, to do what is best for all, the animals and the many uses we are making of them.

No one said to let pigs to roam free. Just to give them some space to lie down, stretch their legs a bit and turn around.

Ever take care of any chickens?
You will find out in a hurry why caging them is questionable, but leaving them running around more so, if you want to stay in the chicken and egg business.

We had 15 laying hens in a large yard and chicken house and once in a while, there was one less, as chickens are won't to do, they pecked one into injury and if you didn't catch it soon, killed her.
If you raise chickens by the thousands, you really need to find the best way to do so without those chicken traits coming into play big time, where you lose them by the hundreds.

Do the chickens know or care where they live, or is it us who impose our ideas of how a chicken should have a fulfilled life?
That is still being studied and debated in the chicken industry itself. .

Yes I do know of chickens -free ranging chickens at that and know their family structures and know how violent they can be -especially if confined . But I am not saying I wan't to come in and let them all be free. That is you implying that. I am saying if you keep them in cages, just give them some room to turn or stretch their wings -just some extra room. That is not the end of agriculture as we know it. You know if HSUS came out against that rule, the public would have voted for it anyways. Just some extra space...Please don't assume anyone who question farm practices doesn't have a clue. I can hitch a pair of oxen and drive a loaded bullock cart through heavy traffic-can you?? Well, at least I used to be able to-haven't done it in a while. But that doesn't mean anything to this discussion.

If you ever really look into agriculture, you will find, past the bashing ongoing continuously in the press at every real and imaginary slight, that agriculture has been one of the most progressive industries, that has given us the society we have today, where few can provide for so many so well, reliably, as safely as possible and in aboundant and variety never seen in this world before.

Now, you may or not like it, it is not all rainbows and roses, as some say, but it is one of the success stories of the last century, along with others, that let us today be typing and discussing this on our forums on computes and the internet.
We really should be thankful that only 2% of our citizens can provide some basic necessities and services for the rest of the 98%. .

Both sides of my family have been practicing agriculture and other small realted business for centuries. My dad and mom were first to step out. I still have uncles and aunts all doing agriculture. So I do have a little knowledge. Sorry either you are constantly reading PETA websites or the opposing websites that are constantly drumming up this issue-but for the vast majority it is just a passing issue. I admit I don't watch TV much, but really , I don't think the whole world has stopped and is constantly bashing agriculture? Even in CA, a few other states were first to implement that measure . All it says is give them a tad more space.

You know, getting back to the myths of factory farming, I still hear all the time how we raise cattle in pens all their lives.
I wonder what those cows and calves everyone driving down any highway can see come into that picture, why people choose to believe some propaganda, when with their own eyes they can see it is not so?
Dissasociation perhaps?.

Well that would not be me . But yes some people believe Bigfoot exists and some believe Obama was not born in this nation and the Gov of Virginia believes slavery was a minor issue in the civil war and need not even be mentioned. He did change his tune due to public outcry and the president of Iran believes that the Holocaust did not occur and that no gay people exist in Iran. You can't change everyone's mind and will go crazy if you focus on every little thing.

The HSUS is making seemingly sensible demands, as you believe.
To those that know how to raise and care for those animals, that have spend years doing their best as it is, they know that the animal rights groups idea is not to make lives better for the animals, they don't care about that, but to disrupt animal agriculture enough to make it eventually impossible to do business. :.

I said I support this one legislation and it just so happened HSUS supports it too. So what, that is their problem. That does not mean me and the 63% of CA who supported this measure-some from very agricultural counties I might add- are rabid PETA/HSUS supporters.

We really need to be working to curb abuse where we find it, but we need to do so with sensible ideas, not following animal rights agendas, not if we want to keep our rights to use animals, including our horses.

Agree and once in a while, if the big ag can accept some things instead of clamming up and calling everyone who has a different idea HSUS supporters, maybe you might find we have far more in common? Every time a video comes out-it is always staged or doctored or a set up. Sometimes things happen , like this one from PETA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eQQQBn4dlo

Now just because someone is shocked because of this, that does not mean they wan't to end agriculture as we know it-just to make sure it does not happen and give them some space.

[Bluey]

Ok I never did watch TV much. After I moved back to L.A, decided not to get a TV and so far I don't miss it. I don't care much for talk show hosts and neither do many people I know. It is scripted. They have a whole team gathering material, formatting it to fit in the time frame, pollsters-just a whole team. They cater to an audience and I think many of those people spouting off don't really beleive what they are saying-well at least some of them. It is just a well paying gig to them.

I don't care much for Oprah and nor do I care or know who she is friends with. The only show I really enjoyed was Jerry Springer. Not the same after Steve the bodyguard left the show to form his own show! But at least Springer is more genuine. Apart from that I like scifi and animal shows-but never watch those cable news or even regular news. The internet is more than enough. But you are giving them far too much credit and giving regular folks lot less credit.

I don't watch TV, other than the national news and local ones, mostly for the weather.
I get reports of what is being said in some programs, transcripts with certain stories that impact how animal agriculture is portrayed, thus my comments.



No one said to let pigs to roam free. Just to give them some space to lie down, stretch their legs a bit and turn around.

I know and pig producers are working on it, as already mentioned.

Yes I do know of chickens -free ranging chickens at that and know their family structures and know how violent they can be -especially if confined . But I am not saying I wan't to come in and let them all be free. That is you implying that. I am saying if you keep them in cages, just give them some room to turn or stretch their wings -just some extra room. That is not the end of agriculture as we know it. You know if HSUS came out against that rule, the public would have voted for it anyways. Just some extra space...Please don't assume anyone who question farm practices doesn't have a clue. I can hitch a pair of oxen and drive a loaded bullock cart through heavy traffic-can you?? Well, at least I used to be able to-haven't done it in a while. But that doesn't mean anything to this discussion.

Yes I can, have farmed with a horse behind a one bottom plow, homemade in the forge, since I was almost 10, when big enough to lift it and turn the leaf to go back the other way.
Sow oats by hand from a tow sack, harvested barley with short handled sickles and made bundles and threshed them with the horse, etc.

Both sides of my family have been practicing agriculture and other small realted business for centuries. My dad and mom were first to step out. I still have uncles and aunts all doing agriculture. So I do have a little knowledge. Sorry either you are constantly reading PETA websites or the opposing websites that are constantly drumming up this issue-but for the vast majority it is just a passing issue. I admit I don't watch TV much, but really , I don't think the whole world has stopped and is constantly bashing agriculture? Even in CA, a few other states were first to implement that measure . All it says is give them a tad more space.

Maybe you need to get out a little bit more?

Well that would not be me . But yes some people believe Bigfoot exists and some believe Obama was not born in this nation and the Gov of Virginia believes slavery was a minor issue in the civil war and need not even be mentioned. He did change his tune due to public outcry and the president of Iran believes that the Holocaust did not occur and that no gay people exist in Iran. You can't change everyone's mind and will go crazy if you focus on every little thing.

I said I support this one legislation and it just so happened HSUS supports it too. So what, that is their problem. That does not mean me and the 63% of CA who supported this measure-some from very agricultural counties I might add- are rabid PETA/HSUS supporters.

I don't have a problem, but all of us may, if we eventually lose our rights to have animals.
I am not the only one that sees behind these groups and their "welfare" proposals.
Too bad others don't and poh-poh those concerns.

Agree and once in a while, if the big ag can accept some things instead of clamming up and calling everyone who has a different idea HSUS supporters, maybe you might find we have far more in common? Every time a video comes out-it is always staged or doctored or a set up. Sometimes things happen , like this one from PETA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eQQQBn4dlo

Now just because someone is shocked because of this, that does not mean they wan't to end agriculture as we know it-just to make sure it does not happen and give them some space.

Remember the big deal about people abusing cattle in auctions, in national TV, with videos the HSUS so conveniently provided the media before those votes in CA happened?
Here is what one of the auction managers had to say, when that was investigated:

http://humanewatch.org/images/upload...MLB_Report.pdf

What was reported and the way the video was show was way out of proportion to what happened in that video, to make all look like abusers.
That is called propaganda.

You really must not be paying attention, if you have not noticed the assault on any farming and animal raising going on constantly on TV and newsmagazines and practically any place you care to look.

One example, more than half of fertilizer, pesticides and herbicides manufactured today are going for parks, golf clubs and residential uses, that is lawns.
Guess who the media blames every time there is any pollution in waterways? Agriculture, forgetting the many more tons that are the run off from other sources.

That we are becoming a society ignorant of where our resources lay and how we get them will impact our horse world also, the more we run people off with that uncontested bad press, people that may have been interested in interacting with animals.

There is much that can be made better in all we do in life, including with our horses and in agriculture in general, but we really should be glad that we have what we have and are working at making it better.

I think that we really are in a general decline of intellectual life, physical assets and are wasting away our resources, human and others.

Computers saved our bacon when we were becoming stagnant some 40 years ago, I don't know what if anything will this time around, compounded as it is with a general global decline.

Just remember, horses for us in the USA are a big, important industry, but also a luxury for many of those that support the horse industry as customers.
In hard times, horses will be, as all luxuries are, the first to be left behind.
I think we had been seeing this the past few years, just accelerating now with this deepening recession.

[tkhawk]

I think it depends on where you hang out with. If you make your livelihood through farming, then anything regards that becomes your central worldview.

Most of my friends, their worry is the economy and yes jobs are coming back, but globalization has put pressure on wages. Many are worried about what will happen to their kids-will their kids have to gasp leave America in search of opportunities, housing etc. Farming and big ag is kinda way in the background.

When I worked in the corporate world, outsourcing, my field becoming increasingly outsourced was my major concern. That is all I saw in the news and everyday .Then I started my business and am now out of the corporate world. Now it does not bother me much. Now I try and learn as much but from a neutral space-more to help me in a financial/investment perspective-that is all I do. In a way, this is good-unlike jobs/farming, where you are "fixed" with the trend-here you can move with the wave whichever way it goes. If America is heading for a long downhill patch, invest that way or if China/India are in amjor bubble territory , invest that way. The outcome is not personal to me anymore-more figuring out which way it is going and how that affects things .

So yes when you are in that particular field, that may seem to be the overriding concern-your income and livelihood is based on that. But on the pollution, in CA it is not guesswork. You can meausre runoff and they can tell if it comes from horse manure, human waste leakage , industrials. So it really is not guess work anymore.

I am not pooh pooing concerns. Never in my lifetime did I imagine PETA would make it big in India. Who knew? Plus over there, they have caught hold of really big stars. Kinda like having Angelina Jolie and Robert Redford as spokesmen for PETA. So yes I understand, urban folks with no exposure can be a ripe market for such. But the only place I digress is abuse happens. In India for example, when all these corporate farms rushed-many times it could just be a group of software engineers who hear that the price of milk is x dollars/rupees , decides it is a great business, buys land and a few cows all on loans and goes there a few times a week and hires a few folks. These people only see the money and anyhting that might provide comfort -physical or mental to the animal but costs a few rupees more is not used at all. Because of the social structure before, there were no abuse laws and these people started treating them just like you treat a machine. Many people, farmers included were horrified when PETA and several groups started to show this videos. Things have changed a bit-not as much as here. Yet go to villages and it is still the same as it was eons ago.


All I am saying is, yes these groups primary goal maybe to get rid of animals for ever. But some of what they show is true. Our anger against them should not blind us against some things that they show. Instead if we address them, then they loose their power.

[Bluey]

---"All I am saying is, yes these groups primary goal maybe to get rid of animals for ever. But some of what they show is true. Our anger against them should not blind us against some things that they show. Instead if we address them, then they loose their power."---


I don't think you read that report, or you would realize that real abuse was abhorred by all, those in the industry also.
We really care for our animals and it hurts us when some abuse them.
What the videos were showing, edited as they were, was not true, making things look abusive many times when they were not, just as showing a car wreck and saying all driving cars have a wreck a day.

On your comment on being too close to agriculture to realize most of the world doesn't care about what goes on in it, you have to realize that we don't only are living with our agricultural concerns, but in the real world also and as consumers of those products too, so we are not as isolated and missing the bigger picture as you think we may be.
We would be foolish to, because how the world goes, agriculture is affected also.
One example, when times are tight, people eat less beef and more chicken, because chicken seems cheaper, although it is only marginally so, since you buy the bones, that is waste and pay meat prices for them by weight.
Still, chicken is somewhat cheaper per lb of protein, and with most people not realizing the waste that goes with it, they buy it over beef.

There really is so much to everything we do and don't do.
Without consumers buying what those of us producing have to sell, be it agricultural products or the horses we raise if you breed, our business models would not work, so we have to be aware of how consumers consume.

[tkhawk]

I wasn't refering to this report in particular, but in general. That if you refer to every report/video as fake, then it is not going to help.

But I agree with farmers. My uncle and my cousins are still farmers. They plant everything from cotton, sugarcane, groundnut, rice, corn, vegetables,chillies etc-apart from cows , goats and chicken. It really takes a lot of planning-that part of India is all irrigation and nowadays the rains are really all over the place-so you have to account for that too. Also prices really depend on supply and demand. Now there are a billion people, so demand is there. But the price you get varies by how many farmers have planted the same crops. The state govt will protect you though-if the price of say rice drops due to heavy imports from neighbouring states, they will ban rice imports. So while there is no direct subsidies, the govt will pull all the stops to maintain prices. Yes when you plant that many crops-especially cash crops-you have to take those factors into account.

Same thing with a job. if your field is being outsourced heavily-well you can pray that you will be spared or in my case since I am from India, I had plenty of opportunity to move into being like a liason between here and there. But too much work and odd hours. I choose this and am happy. This gives me tremendous flexibility-I can live anywhere in the world as long as there is reliable electricity and power and internet and phone service. Plus unlike jobs/farming, you are not at the mercy of forces like drought or your entire field/factory being outsourced etc. Much easier to adapt to changes as long as you can read trends and apply which way it is going.

The only thing I meant is that if you are in a particular field-be that a doctor, farmer, software etc. that tends to be a big central focus-especially if you have family, kids, animals all depending on that. Even factory farming-lets just say there is a proposition to end factory farming and as a result food prices tripled-guess what, me and the majority will most probably vote against it! Yes we are interconnected, but our focus can be primary on some things depending on where we are in life at that point in time.

[Bluey]

I wasn't refering to this report in particular, but in general. That if you refer to every report/video as fake, then it is not going to help.

But I agree with farmers. My uncle and my cousins are still farmers. They plant everything from cotton, sugarcane, groundnut, rice, corn, vegetables,chillies etc-apart from cows , goats and chicken. It really takes a lot of planning-that part of India is all irrigation and nowadays the rains are really all over the place-so you have to account for that too. Also prices really depend on supply and demand. Now there are a billion people, so demand is there. But the price you get varies by how many farmers have planted the same crops. The state govt will protect you though-if the price of say rice drops due to heavy imports from neighbouring states, they will ban rice imports. So while there is no direct subsidies, the govt will pull all the stops to maintain prices. Yes when you plant that many crops-especially cash crops-you have to take those factors into account.

Same thing with a job. if your field is being outsourced heavily-well you can pray that you will be spared or in my case since I am from India, I had plenty of opportunity to move into being like a liason between here and there. But too much work and odd hours. I choose this and am happy. This gives me tremendous flexibility-I can live anywhere in the world as long as there is reliable electricity and power and internet and phone service. Plus unlike jobs/farming, you are not at the mercy of forces like drought or your entire field/factory being outsourced etc. Much easier to adapt to changes as long as you can read trends and apply which way it is going.

The only thing I meant is that if you are in a particular field-be that a doctor, farmer, software etc. that tends to be a big central focus-especially if you have family, kids, animals all depending on that. Even factory farming-lets just say there is a proposition to end factory farming and as a result food prices tripled-guess what, me and the majority will most probably vote against it! Yes we are interconnected, but our focus can be primary on some things depending on where we are in life at that point in time.

Of course everything in a video is not false, but so much is taken out of context to further their agenda, that is why they do it.
The way videos are edited, showing that one same thing over and over, sometimes making it look like it is different instances, when it is the same, that at times you think they paid someone to do that, it is so insane and against all regulations, all that really makes you wonder.
As I said, like showing a car wreck and then keep harping on it, showing it again and again and the narrative indicating that such is the terrible result of driving in highways and is happening every time you drive.

Here is one of those, this documentary, that was way out of context in how it shows agriculture, a pure propaganda piece for a certain mind set, in journalistic terms, a hatched job, that could have been the same about the mining industry, the hotel industry, nursing homes or churches.

You can do the same to the racing industry, the dressage world, endurance, eventing.
You name it and someone can sit there with videos, edit it to show what they want and bash away.

Here is one such case showing what I mean, that you may have missed, if you don't think that agriculture is a popular whipping boy of the media today:

http://westernfarmpress.com/news/law...re-oscar-0406/

To take something and only show way out of context proclamations about it is not information, is propaganda.
We have much of that coming from animal rights groups.
Where do you think the money comes for all that, but their so deep coffers, all donations from the gullible public, that are also large voter blocks?
They fell for it in the initial drives for money and will fall for it again when it comes time to vote, as in CA.
The results is that eventually we will lose our rights to have animals to use and care for, including horses.