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  • #21
    As far as I'm concerned, this is a great example of the pitfalls of privatizing goverment services. There is no accountability.

    I'm assuming that HSUS and the rescue involved have some sort of contract with the city/county. The contract language needs to be revisited. Private agencies must understand that they are subordinate to public agencies, not the other way around.

    I hope she gets a big settlement in court. I'd gladly donate to her legal fund.

    BTW, I do read COTH often. I guess I've just missed HSUS stuff.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post

      I think that whoever is doing animal control work (or assisting law enforcement officers) needs to undergo training ... but that takes money. And money is something a lot of communities don't have to spare.

      And isn't that the pit fall?

      There comes the glorious 'organization' with millions and millions and offers to 'help'

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by bridgetah1 View Post
        I'm assuming that HSUS and the rescue involved have some sort of contract with the city/county. The contract language needs to be revisited. Private agencies must understand that they are subordinate to public agencies, not the other way around.
        They probably don't have a contract. I know that the rescue I run doesn't have a contract with any agency. We're called for advice and help as needed. I would PREFER a contract that outlines responsibilities of both parties .... but that is just not done with horse rescues and law enforcement. And I am having a tough time convincing law enforcement it should be! (It is with small animal organizations)..
        Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

        Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
          And isn't that the pit fall?

          There comes the glorious 'organization' with millions and millions and offers to 'help'
          That is a pitfall. Because the law enforcement agencies have no training, they rely on rescues to help them out. Some rescues are good and seek out training (there ARE training opportunities out there). Other rescues are not.

          I would like to see a group of law enforcement and animal professionals work together to certify some training processes that could be used for law enforcement and the organizations they work with. BUT that takes money...
          Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

          Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
            That is a pitfall. Because the law enforcement agencies have no training, they rely on rescues to help them out. Some rescues are good and seek out training (there ARE training opportunities out there). Other rescues are not.

            I would like to see a group of law enforcement and animal professionals work together to certify some training processes that could be used for law enforcement and the organizations they work with. BUT that takes money...
            So the knights in shining armor swoop in, pay for the 'training' and have successfully bought their way into power.

            I get it, but I suppose it needs to be put in black and white for more people to understand how those things happen....

            or does it safe you from being the target of a vendetta if you are a card carrying member?

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
              That is a pitfall. Because the law enforcement agencies have no training, they rely on rescues to help them out. Some rescues are good and seek out training (there ARE training opportunities out there). Other rescues are not.

              I would like to see a group of law enforcement and animal professionals work together to certify some training processes that could be used for law enforcement and the organizations they work with. BUT that takes money...
              I wish more law enforcement agencies would pay for this....http://www.code3associates.org/ I offered to pay for one AC officer to attend but was never taken up on my offer. Yes, it is money out- of- pocket (or budget) for agencies but if they could apply what they learn here it could quickly pay for itself by imposing fines.

              http://www.code3associates.org/EIA.php
              "Concern for animals is a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong, something the best people have always done." Harriet Beecher Stowe 1811-1896

              Ponies are cool!

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by equinelaundry View Post
                I wish more law enforcement agencies would pay for this....http://www.code3associates.org/ I offered to pay for one AC officer to attend but was never taken up on my offer. Yes, it is money out- of- pocket (or budget) for agencies but if they could apply what they learn here it could quickly pay for itself by imposing fines.
                I wish more agencies would send people, too. I've been through all three levels (and will go to the equine specific classes, too. I had to cancel two years ago due to a death in the family and last year due to my mom's illness).

                I wish there would be more classes taught by trained people - not only Code 3 (who I greatly admire), but other organizations as well who could give classes in areas Code 3 doesn't cover. A LOT of law enforcement agencies cannot afford travel out of state for their officers... so more classes are needed.

                We can't expect law enforcement to handle cases right if they don't have the training. OR at the very least, if they're not taught how to select good (reputable and educated) groups to work with.
                Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

                Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
                  I wish more agencies would send people, too. I've been through all three levels (and will go to the equine specific classes, too. I had to cancel two years ago due to a death in the family and last year due to my mom's illness).

                  I wish there would be more classes taught by trained people - not only Code 3 (who I greatly admire), but other organizations as well who could give classes in areas Code 3 doesn't cover. A LOT of law enforcement agencies cannot afford travel out of state for their officers... so more classes are needed.

                  We can't expect law enforcement to handle cases right if they don't have the training. OR at the very least, if they're not taught how to select good (reputable and educated) groups to work with.
                  Are law enforcement agencies open to working with reputable and educated groups? Sometimes it seems the politics of crossing over perceived agency lines and stepping on toes of others in a professional capacity can hinder enforcing the law...although not the case with this woman.

                  I'm a huge fan of imposing fines. I've always thought if done consistently it would start to make a difference. I refuse to take the rose-colored glasses off for that dream!

                  What can we do to encourage and fund the proper training? I thought Day's End used to do some training on the East Coast but I might be wrong about that. Would/could you lead the march if you had the funds? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Maybe one day we can help implement them in the future.

                  The group Speak Up For Horses has done quite a bit of work with KY officials. Some law enforcement agencies accept it and are eager to learn, others not so much and hold onto the good 'ole boy mentality and protect their own, no matter how bad the neglect.
                  "Concern for animals is a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong, something the best people have always done." Harriet Beecher Stowe 1811-1896

                  Ponies are cool!

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Am I the only one who isn't quite buying the story? What's the other side?

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by paw View Post
                      Am I the only one who isn't quite buying the story? What's the other side?
                      I wondered about that also, but someone that runs a horse rescue in that area knows what happened there and said there was no abuse, horses were taken care properly and it was all an animal rights stunt, fueled by a personal vendetta.

                      The sad part is that the officials went along with it and seized the horses and all that else that happened AND that such things can happen to ANYONE in today's animal rights propaganda fueled witch hunt mentality we are becoming as a society.

                      Just read what everyone believes about "factory farming", people that don't know at all what is going on will believe anyone's propaganda any more, when before, people really knew better and those myths would have been laughed at.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I'm sorry but sitting on the computer bitching about how your law enforcement team isn't trained on how to handle animal neglect/abuse isn't going to help! Get off the chair and volunteer!
                        Our AC knows pets and cattle through their home experience. They do the requisite training and certifications. They do not have the budget for much else. As a matter of fact, training has been completely wiped out for this year for the entire police force. They are only going to the certification courses but nothing else. They don't have the money.
                        So, help them. You are knowledgeable horse people that can help bridge the gap between what they know as law and procedure and what's the best for the horse.
                        Even duct tape can't fix stupid

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          What a sad and tragic mess for ALL involved ~ we will never really know ~
                          Zu Zu Bailey " IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE ! "

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by LisaB View Post
                            I'm sorry but sitting on the computer bitching about how your law enforcement team isn't trained on how to handle animal neglect/abuse isn't going to help! Get off the chair and volunteer!
                            Our AC knows pets and cattle through their home experience. They do the requisite training and certifications. They do not have the budget for much else. As a matter of fact, training has been completely wiped out for this year for the entire police force. They are only going to the certification courses but nothing else. They don't have the money.
                            So, help them. You are knowledgeable horse people that can help bridge the gap between what they know as law and procedure and what's the best for the horse.
                            Don't presume people haven't.
                            "Concern for animals is a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong, something the best people have always done." Harriet Beecher Stowe 1811-1896

                            Ponies are cool!

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                              Just read what everyone believes about "factory farming", people that don't know at all what is going on will believe anyone's propaganda any more, when before, people really knew better and those myths would have been laughed at.

                              What exactly is a myth about factory farming. Can you elaborate and debunk them??

                              PETA is just extreme. But apparantely HSUS a long time ago started out good. I can relate. While I did work for a long time in a big corporation , when I started there, it was an independant unit and was pretty much treated as a start up. It was so fun to work there. Everything flowing smoothly and everyone knowing what their role was and just almost like a small family. Then it grew and became established and what a nighmare that was. Once it became established , you didn't need the real smart folks to do a job. You just needed people to make sure the lights were turned on and off and everything was running smoothly. Slowly everyone grew to be a director and a VP and so on. Of ocurse you needed employees under you to justify that and so you hired more. We almost quadrupled in strength, even though work load was the same or even less . Then the top corporate questioned why we were costing so much-so what do they do-cut off the excess management? Nope, they offshored the worker bees, kept all the layers of mgmt intact and that made it a bigger mess as due to turf battles, each VP offshored to a different team. To do a thing it took me an hour or two now might take a month or more and also involve 5 or even ten people. Quality has plummeted and you wonder why. Many of friends there who started off in startups all complain the same thing. Once a thing gets established, it just seem the bureacrat types take over and they make it seem like it is the most imporatant thing in the world and anyways-I could go on and on about corporate stuff.

                              Why I bring this up, is it looks like a similar thing has happened with HSUS. Becasue once upon a time, it looked like they did some good work. Now with a 200 million war chest and not really running a single shelter -they seem to have morphed into a well oiled corporate machine that just exists to enrich itself and keep itself alive. Hopefully dumb moves like these will blow up on them and make people realize that they are really just fluff, even dangerous and stop contributing or start contributing to their local organizations-which need the money.

                              But people are not dumb. They care. Some on here have cited the recent rule change in CA as proof that HSUS is here to take our animals away. Well all they did was ask that chickens and other farm animals have a little more space in their cages . What is so bad in that? Would you like for your horse to be stuck in a chute for its entire life unable to move even a little bit? It is not like they are saying allow chickens to have a natural life and run around and peck at woms or some such-just that they can lie down, turn around and fully extend their limbs/wings. What is so bad about that , that it is going to lead to the collapse of farming as we know it. How is that going to lead to seizure of all animals??

                              These kinds of things is what lead to HSUS becoming so big. Now that they are big, they are just doing what any other big entity before them has done-steamroll anyone in their way. But looking at all these cases, it is a matter of time, before something real bad blows up in their face and really ruins them or at the very least causes them to change course. In the meanwhile attempting to portray legislation that merely asks that some farm animals that are currently confined without being able to turn, lie down or merely stretch their limbs/wings fully as an animal rights power grabs-merely gives HSUS more legitamacy.

                              Back to this case, I can't for the life of me figure out why the sherrif got involved. At least in that lady's case in Pennsylvania I think-where they seized her hunting dogs on some arcane code violation-it was all volunteer folks. So yeah you can say they were zealous-but I would think the sheriff might have more important things to do?? This case just seems so weird and off the wall though and especially the role of this woman Barbara Chapman . Apparantely she brought this whole thing on-unless of course her complaint gave HSUS the ammo to test the new law . But still wondering what the sherriff got out of all this -or maybe he just got in without looking and is trying to save face and avoid a lawsuit by hoping the woman will plead guilty ? It just seems bizarre.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                The base myth about factory farming:
                                The farmers are 2 headed puppy kicking ogres who rejoice at the animals' suffering.

                                But then again there is this, as the president of a German farmers' organization put it, a long time ago: Who never gets more than 12 cows in his life thinks industrial farming starts with 13....

                                Take laying hens for example:
                                The myth: it's ZOMG so evil to stick them in those tiny cages where they can't move about

                                Truth: The cage size has come about by trial and error. With the need to accommodate the masses' need for cheap foods, more animals need to produce more in smaller areas. You out the hens in smaller cages though, they won't lay, in bigger ones they hack each other to pieces.
                                As my dad puts it, the romantic about the happy chicken scratching in the manure is offset by a virtual salmonella free food supply...


                                In all honesty, I think back in the 70s and 80s, PETA actually did some good. but just like the Hippies went away, it has passed it's prime.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                                  As my dad puts it, the romantic about the happy chicken scratching in the manure is offset by a virtual salmonella free food supply...


                                  Or the notion of pigs wandering all over the farm eating anything they find, offset by being able to eat uncured pork without cooking it to shoe leather to kill the trichinosis cysts...
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                                  • #37
                                    No nobody -at least nobody I know-thinks farmers are some evil creatures. Nor do any of us think that just having multiple cows is bad. Have ten thousand cows for all I care, just with some room.

                                    But with chicken and pigs-I agree it came about due to pure optimal planning to provide the most at the cheapest price. But still that does not address the fact that they are shut up all their lives without being able to move much. Again animals as pure commodities-where effeciency is the only consideration and not that the animal is a living breathing thing that does something other than laying eggs or giving birth to pigs. This is where it gets dangerous into animal rights. Because people do care enough about them and if many farmers groups wan't to merely dismiss them out of hand as some wacko AR groups, then the line between them begins to blur and you have HSUS masquerading as a welfare group when it is an AR group. But CA is not the only state with such laws-multiple states from AZ to FL all have them too.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                                      Or the notion of pigs wandering all over the farm eating anything they find, offset by being able to eat uncured pork without cooking it to shoe leather to kill the trichinosis cysts...
                                      Nobody is even asking that pigs roam around the farm in some polyanna fashion. All they are saying is -give them enough room to turn around, lay down or stretch their limbs fully. That is quite a stretch from that to this?

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by equinelaundry View Post
                                        Are law enforcement agencies open to working with reputable and educated groups? Sometimes it seems the politics of crossing over perceived agency lines and stepping on toes of others in a professional capacity can hinder enforcing the law...although not the case with this woman.
                                        Bluebonnet has worked with probably about 15-20 different law enforcement agencies in the past year. Each relationship is different... for some, they do all the work (investigation, seizure, court case) and call us to take the horses in. In other cases, we assist with all or part of the process.

                                        There are counties who have been burnt by bad rescues and won't even talk to us.

                                        What can we do to encourage and fund the proper training? I thought Day's End used to do some training on the East Coast but I might be wrong about that. Would/could you lead the march if you had the funds? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Maybe one day we can help implement them in the future.
                                        I'm working on something for Texas - working with someone who is a certified instructor through the TCLEOSE (Texas Commission for Law Enforcement Officers Standards & Education). Our goal is to offer education that means the standards for continuing education in Texas and to make it affordable for law enforcement agencies to send people.

                                        I have learned that in Texas, there are organizations that offer scholarships for LEOs to go to training. But the training has to be offered in short 'chunks' so the officers aren't missing a week of work at a time. And it has to be within decent traveling distance.

                                        AND we've got to make people take training in animal law enforcement matters seriously. I think a lot of time the training gets blown off because it is low priority. Perhaps if the community more strongly supported the training, encouraging officers to go, encouraging the officers' superiors to let them go, etc. that would help.

                                        None of it is an easy fix.
                                        Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

                                        Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by tkhawk View Post
                                          Nobody is even asking that pigs roam around the farm in some polyanna fashion. All they are saying is -give them enough room to turn around, lay down or stretch their limbs fully. That is quite a stretch from that to this?
                                          Well, hard to believe, but progress has been made.

                                          Once they figured out that pigs (they are smart, you know)
                                          Like to have different 'rooms' in their pen, they concluded that they can keep the same amount of pigs in the same amount of space and still let them have their different areas all by putting them in one big pen.

                                          However, pigs are problematic, they have become very sucseptable to disease. You can't just waltz into a pig barn these days, the sanitary precautions are almost greater than for a surgeon going into OR. Not my personal preference in in lifestock, but I suppose scares of swine pest and what have you...there is still a population to feed.

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