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What did I do wrong? *HAPPY UPDATE! #44*

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  • #21
    You don't know each other yet so take it easy for now. He either has no good ground training or he was testing you (or both.)
    Now is the time to correct him every single time he disobeys even if you don't get much further than the cross-ties. Reward him with a pet when he stands quietly, don't tolerate anything else. The time you spend on this now is crucial, you will never get back these first few weeks and months, so be patient and firm.
    If you have a roundpen, work in there for a while, establish leadership, make sure he understands you are his new boss now.
    Instead of riding on the trail, handwalk him a few times and look at the trees and the rocks and practice stopping, turning, walking on, etc. That will calm your anxiety and his as well.
    And have someone else help you and observe you, often we don't realize how much we say with our bodies and (nervous) energy...
    If it was simply the weather that day, you most likely have found out already that he is indeed the quiet calm horse you were promised, but if not, see above
    Good luck and be safe.

    Comment


    • #22
      And remember too that their idea of quiet and yours might be quite different - it just might involve not bucking! I've seen a huge range of tolerance for bad ground manners, from people who will let horses begin to walk when they're putting their bridle on (hint - you can often throw your hip in front of their shoulder and stop them by bumping them, or elbow them HARD if they start to bully you) to people whose horses drop their heads and bridle themselves (that would be his highness my friesian ). But if my horse gets stressed even he'll misbehave, and he won't do his bridling trick for anyone else, either, although he'll let anyone bridle him normally.

      So they might not have misrepresented him, they just might think he IS quiet, compared to something else. And he might be quiet only in company, which is a problem that can be overcome, but do you want to take the trouble for a lease? What I will go through for a lease is totally different than what I will go through for a retraining horse - usually you have to pay ME to fix your problems .

      So don't necessarily be afraid of this horse, but do find out more about him.

      Comment


      • #23
        The OP said:

        He acted a little antsy the couple times I worked with him before, but the owners were always right there and put a quick end to it.

        ---

        So what did they do when he was antsy?
        "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
        ---
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

        Comment


        • #24
          I have had quite a few normally-sane horses got totally bonkers on windy/pre-stormy days. And when it's "one of those days," if the only choice is ride vs. put him away, I'd put him away, too. The chance of potentially encouraging a bad habit is not worth the higher chance of having a very bad experience in the saddle. I probably would have made him stand at the mounting block and be still for a moment, and when he did that, put him away. Lunging might have gotten the giggles out of him, too, but since you didn't know if he was good on the lunge or not...

          If this is the first time this has happened to this degree, I would chalk it up to the weather, and just have a solid plan of "I'm the boss"-ness planned for your next time out, just as a reminder to him.

          It's highly possible he was testing you, but I think it's equally possible that being out of work for a little while and high on the weather (plus away from buddies) just wigged him out for the moment, and it had nothing to do with you.

          Don't despair, I'm sure it will get better

          Comment


          • #25
            I have found that arabs tend to bond with their "person", but it takes time for them to build up the trust. IMO, he does not trust you 100% yet, and it has nothing to do with doing anything wrong.

            I just bought a new horse, and we are in that "getting to know you phase". The first bridling was entertaining, not as entertaining as yours, but she clenched her teeth together and we had a bit of a stand-off until she decided to take the bit. She was also a bit funny about putting on her halter. She is well trained, just some funny quirks, and I think it was because she didn't know me well enough to trust me. So I spent time with haltering and bridling lessons for her, and within a week, she was much better about it.

            It was probably a combination of trust level, wild weather, and a dash of buddy sour (if all the other horses were still out).
            There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be. - Andy Adams

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #26
              Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
              The OP said:

              He acted a little antsy the couple times I worked with him before, but the owners were always right there and put a quick end to it.

              ---

              So what did they do when he was antsy?

              Mostly it was just a sharp word in a growly sort of tone, and when he started pawing/striking the concrete barn aisle, he got an open-handed smack on the chest, which he only needed once. I tried to replicate their tone of voice, but didn't try the chest smack since he seemed frightened and I knew he had no reason to trust me since he doesn't know me at all.

              If the weather is nice tomorrow, I think I'm going to give it another shot. It's the weekend, so there are likely to be several other people out working with their horses, and the horse's owner should be on hand. I'm still sore as heck, but I'd really like to be able to ride, and not just wrestle!

              Comment


              • #27
                So consider this.. if he is already feeling insecure and upset and you don't tell him what to do, then he doesn't *know* what to do!

                I'd do exactly what they did.

                I sold a horse once who would stand in the washbay and start pawing and freaking out.. you had to walk up to him, slap him on the neck (loud, not hurt him, just make a big noise) and say BAILEY! KNOCK IT OFF! and he'd take a big breath and give a big sigh of relief and go to sleep. He really, really wanted you to tell him to stop right now! It was so funny. If you did anything else he'd escalate until he broke loose.
                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                ---
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
                  So consider this.. if he is already feeling insecure and upset and you don't tell him what to do, then he doesn't *know* what to do!

                  I'd do exactly what they did.

                  I sold a horse once who would stand in the washbay and start pawing and freaking out.. you had to walk up to him, slap him on the neck (loud, not hurt him, just make a big noise) and say BAILEY! KNOCK IT OFF! and he'd take a big breath and give a big sigh of relief and go to sleep. He really, really wanted you to tell him to stop right now! It was so funny. If you did anything else he'd escalate until he broke loose.
                  Oh, I totally agree. It just felt wrong to strike someone else's horse, you know? I'm sure they'd much rather I did, as opposed to allowing him to act like a brat.

                  Crossing my fingers for a much better time tomorrow!

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Kitters View Post
                    I am leasing a horse for the first time, after a five year absence from horses. He's an older Arabian, and I had the chance to ride him and work with him a couple times before signing the lease agreement. Both times he was a little bit ants-in-his-pants in the cross-ties while grooming and tacking up, but nothing a stern word couldn't correct.

                    Today I went out for the first time by myself, hoping to take a little trail ride. It was fairly windy with a threat of thunderstorms later in the day, but he seemed calm and relaxed when I fetched him from the pasture. As soon as I got him into the cross-ties, he got a little squirrelly, pawing and swinging his back end around. He settled down for a little bit while I was grooming him, but then started back up worse than ever when I started tacking up. He kept swinging into my space, pawing, neighing, holding his head as high as he could, and looking around with huge eyes.

                    When it came time to bridle him, I pulled his halter off (lead rope around his neck) and he just plowed right through me to get to the gate at the end of the barn aisle. I'd lead him back and he'd do the same thing. I am so sore tonight from battling with him! Finally I managed to get the bridle on him, but he was so antsy that by this point I was almost afraid to get on him. I took him to the indoor arena and made a couple half-assed attempts at mounting, but he was in a bit of a frenzy by that point, so I gave up. Untacking him was almost as big of a nightmare as tacking him up in the first place.

                    I don't want him to learn bad habits from me, or disrespect me to the point that he's a danger. Could it be just the wind spooking him that badly? He was all sweaty by the end, as if he'd had a workout, and he didn't do anything other than wrestle with me! I'm feeling really disappointed and unsure after today's experience. There were a couple times that I was genuinely afraid of getting hurt by him.

                    What could I have done differently? What is the best way to handle this if it happens again?
                    Firstly, I would at the first sign of him being a turd in the crossties, removed him from them. Crossties, IMO, are one of the most difficult & dangerous ways to tie a horse, and certainly quite ineffective when dealing with a horse like this. I would have put him in his stall to get him ready instead, eliminating a lot of the distractions, and certainly rendering him incapable of bullying me around. Don't get me wrong, I've used crossties with much success as well and we have 6 sets of them at the barn I manage. But we have two that when I began the job, liked to try to walk out of them while bridling. Out of rudeness, not panic/spookiness. So I didn't even give them an opportunity, and when they tried, I kicked their butt about it. Rude, unacceptable behavior. We came to an agreement and they don't even try it anymore. Of course you need to use common sense here, and if this horse doesn't know what's expected, is spooked easily etc, then a reprimand/demand of good behavior may not be the best answer.

                    I prefer to take away any excuse I can, and then build up to get to skills like standing correctly and quietly in the crossties. Something else you might need to take stock of is figuring out what his attitude is going to be from the moment you see him. With most horses, you can tell if you watch and listen. When I go to work a horse, I generally know the second I put them in the crossties and start grooming whether they need to blow off steam on the longeline first or are going to be able to get right down to work. Some of them are more obvious than others, though.

                    I also, when getting to know a new horse, probably would have taken the first few days to longe, and then probably a couple more days to longe in sidereins. This would be to make sure I have things situated, and his respect, from the ground, before I'd ever swing a leg over. Seems like there's some holes in his ground manners at minimum.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      You've got lots of good advice above.

                      One of the things I've found helpful (as an owner) is to be around for the first several rides. So with another buddy, without, inside, outside, etc, until the person is really comfortable with any "tricks". And, trust me, they ALL have their tricks, quirks, or whatever you want to call them. Is it possible for the owner, or even someone more familiar with the horse to be there, to say "Oh, ya, that's normal. Do X". Or "Umm, I've never seen him do THAT before".

                      As an owner, too, you really get accustomed to handling a certain horse a certain way until it just simply is second nature, so it may not even have occurred to them to mention X or Y.

                      Again, speaking strickly from an owner pov, if you aren't comfortable handling and riding the horse, please speak up. The last thing I would ever want would be for someone to get turned off riding or, even worse, get hurt. There are lots of horses out there, and there is a perfect one out there for you if this fella isn't it.

                      Good luck with it!
                      Last edited by Come Shine; Apr. 4, 2010, 02:31 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        How did your ride go this time?

                        The storm could really be a factor. I know our dogs, long before a storm comes, start pawing at the doors and getting agitated. Our horses don't seem too bothered, but every one is different.

                        What does your lease say re a "get out" clause. See how your ride goes today, but honestly, if he's still an idiot, I think you could perhaps find a different one that you would enjoy more. I wouldn't want to spend money leasing someone else's horse that I didn't enjoy.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          You know, I just have to compliment you on the whole way you've handled the situation. Asking for help--what a great thought. Asking for help and asking "What could I have done differently?"--amazing! All of the former, and not blaming the horse or calling him dreadful names...well, my hat's off to you. Well done. 5 years off or not, you are a true horsewoman.

                          As an aside, Vitamin B 1 crumbles help take the edge off hotter horses when the weather is edgy or they've had a bit too much time off work (my TB eats a handful like a treat, then goes into a nice little coma )

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Thank you guys so much for remember my plan for riding today, and for all your encouragement and advice. It has honestly made the difference between me feeling fearful and unsure into feeling confident that there are things I can try to make a difference.

                            Spartacus, thank you especially for your very kind words. Got me a little misty! I really do try to always be mindful of my part of the equation.

                            I went out today, hoping that the barn would be busy, as it's a weekend, but it was deserted! One of the big trailers was gone, so I think everybody was out somewhere. I didn't see a single non-horsey soul during the two hours I spent there.

                            "S" (my lease horse) was a bit of a stinker to catch in the pasture, but I had him within five minutes, so no biggie. He was a perfect lamb in the cross-ties, enjoying the grooming and the treats I was handing out. That really boosted me up to see him behaving for me, and made me think that the first time out was an anomaly. He got a little squirrelly again once his saddle was on, pawing and calling for his friends, but he was respectful of my space and attentive.

                            I was worried about the problems we had last time with bridling, when he plowed right through me to get to the gate, so I thought I'd be clever this time and slip him into one of the empty box stalls to get his bridle on. Well, the joke was on me because the stall was already all stocked up with hay and grain, awaiting its night-time occupant, and S wasted no time in snarfing up a big mouthful. Then of course he didn't want to open his mouth for the bit, and I had to stand there guarding the grain bin so he didn't grab any more. He tried his best to get around me, but I won that battle and got the bridle on him without too much protest.

                            We went to the indoor arena, and that's where the trouble started! He didn't want to stand still for mounting! It was so maddening, as soon as I would pick up my foot, he would skirt to the side away from me, so I would make him trot in circles for a bit, then try again. And again. And again. When he figured out that skirting away didn't work, he started skirting into me instead, which really made me mad because he could so easily knock me over. I really got after him for that, and he only tried it twice. Then I tied up his reins and put a lunge line on him (he lunges just fine) and we did a good 20 minutes of lunging, 10 on each side, until he was quite happy to stand in one place while I mounted. Another battle won!

                            He tried to march off in his own direction a couple times, and quickly found out that wasn't allowed, and we headed off on the trail. He did great until we got out to the road, where he decided that he just wasn't going to go the way I asked. We circled, he took us into the ditch, whipped his head up so high and fast that he almost smashed me in the face (glad I was taught to keep my head slightly off center when struggling with a high-headed horse), more circles, got him back onto the road, and he sidepassed across the whole road in an attempt to get back where he wanted to go. I gave him the ol' "wrong answer, buckwheat!" and he settled in to walking where I pointed him. I kept the ride pretty short because I was feeling pretty wiped by this point, but I really think I won the war today!

                            I'm still a bit frustrated because in leasing a horse, I really want to just have a pleasant ride and enjoy the company of horses again, but I'm going to talk to his owner ASAP to let her know how he is behaving for me and ask her if she has suggestions. We're doing the lease month-to-month, so terminating at the end of this month would be no problem if we can't work out these issues. I really enjoy him when he's doing what I ask!

                            Thank you guys for sticking with me, and for all the great advice! I'll be picking up some of those B1 crumbles!

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Sounds like he's testing you big time! And sounds like he may need a lesson or two with you aboard with a trainer. I would get owner to pay for those!

                              Also, I've found that magnesium can be very calming also.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Kitters View Post
                                I'll be picking up some of those B1 crumbles!
                                I wouldn't. For two reasons. One, you're paying to lease the horse. You shouldn't be paying for supplements. Two, you felt weird smacking someone else's horse, so do you really feel comfortable buying supplements for it? I'd ask the owner if she thinks it is appropriate, and if so, she can buy it.

                                You need to give this horse 2 or 3 more rides. It really sounds like he is testing you. All the things he is doing sound like stuff I see the lesson horses attempt with the students I teach. I would go out there, repeating a confidence phrase over and over again in my head ("I am strong, I can do this" etc.), and try to really be firm with this horse. Get him in the pasture with a treat so he can't be stinky, put him in the indoor immediately and lunge his butt before you even groom him. Burn off some of that energy before you handle him! Then put him in the stall, after removing the food. Groom and tack him, and ride him in the indoor. Make him do what you want and don't take any flak. Give him a few chances to learn that you are boss. I think that he will quickly learn to mind you if you show him that you are a strong leader. If he continues to act up, then you're faced with the decision of whether you want to pay to retrain somebody else's horse, and it sounds like you already know that you don't.

                                Another thing, DON'T GO ON THE TRAIL ALONE AGAIN. Not until he's acting better for you around the farm. The ditch thing sounds scary, and the last thing you want is for you or the horse to get hurt while he's testing you.

                                Good luck. Keep us posted.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  That sounds like a lot of tricks of the school-pony variety!!! Sounds like you handled it better this time.

                                  You'll have to see if after a few more rides he quits bothering with the games, or keeps at it. If he keeps at it, he might not be the horse you want for relaxing pleasure rides.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by lesgarcons View Post
                                    I wouldn't. For two reasons. One, you're paying to lease the horse. You shouldn't be paying for supplements. Two, you felt weird smacking someone else's horse, so do you really feel comfortable buying supplements for it? I'd ask the owner if she thinks it is appropriate, and if so, she can buy it.
                                    Okay, yes, that makes sense. I was thinking of it as more of a treat, and I love buying treats! But I will certainly ask the owner to see if that would be appropriate.

                                    I'm heartened to think that not every ride will be like this. I just want him to walk down the road! Simple request!

                                    I agree that I really shouldn't be riding out alone until we get this under control, but my sneaking suspicion is that he is going to ride like a dream when there are other horses around. He certainly did the first time I rode him. I think I'll continue to see problems every time I try to go out alone... but maybe with a little time he'll figure out that I won't take his crap no matter what the situation.

                                    Also, thanks for the advice to lunge him right away, before even putting him the crossties. I think he needs to figure me out a bit, and that's a good way for us to start. I used to be a professional groom for four high-spirited cross-country horses, and I can lunge until the cows come home! I spent an entire summer lunging one after the other every day, and now I'm quite tireless. I think S needs to figure that out.
                                    Last edited by Kitters; Apr. 4, 2010, 05:27 PM. Reason: typo

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      To me it seems like you did a lot of things right on the second try. Just keep doing that and pretty soon you will likely have won the war. Smart horses like this will try out all their evasions, but once they know they are pointless they usually give them up. Good luck and don't give up!

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        If you're riding out by yourself, I think you're also battling the close proximity to his buddies, shelter and food... Riding close to the barn, without other horses, is always more difficult than being away from home. Out on a trail "far away" he might not try to get his way or even try to get rid of you -- he depends on you, you are his "herd" -- but at home? Hey, he knows how to get back with or without you... especially since you don't have a strong bond yet.

                                        So I would suggest again to handwalk a few times on this trail, especially crossing the street, and then try riding it again, but be prepared for more shenanigans. Ideally, you should get away from home base and see if/how his behavior changes.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I think you handled things very well the second time around.
                                          Kudos to you for sticking to your guns!
                                          Don't be surprised if he tests you again.

                                          PS - Please be safe and wear a helmet.

                                          Comment

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