• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Dangerous Horse: What Would You Do

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Originally posted by MunchkinsMom View Post
    Just to toss a few other ideas out there, any sort of oral tranqs that might help take the edginess off? I have no experience in dealing with a horse like that, and I commend you for trying to give him a chance. However, if he is dangerous to human handlers and possibly himself, that euthanasia may be the best option. And God is not a bad owner.
    This is a good suggestion. Can you get to him with a needle? I'd Ace him and see if his behavior changes. If he calms down and acts half-way normal, I'd say it's behavioral. Perhaps putting him on some sort of oral tranqs when you work with him could enhance some sort of behavioral modification.

    If he continues to act like a basket case with drugs, then I would say he has a short circuit (for lack of a better term) somewhere and I'd have him put down.

    Worth a shot...

    Comment


    • #22
      Before you put him down pull a hair sample and have it analyzed for a mineral deficiency. I read decades ago that it could make a horse act like an outlaw if they lacked it in their diet. (potassium? Selenium? one of them ) Can't remember which but your vet might be able to read up on the original case.
      A pussycat of a horse with a chewed off tail won the triple crown, The Cubs won the world series and Trump won the Presidency.
      Don't tell me 'It can't be done.'

      Comment


      • #23
        I haven't read everyone's replies- I'm kinda tired and really need to go to bed but I wanted to post my 2 cents.

        In my years, I have seen people rush horses into be what the people want instead of stopping and realistically assessing the horse's needs. This horse may need more time than the others and a totally different approach.

        A lot of times with rescue and aggressive animals you have to take a more submissive approach at first, and by submissive I mean to say a more non threatening demeanor. Scientists do these things all of the time when they are in the wild studying animals in the native lands in their natural habitats.

        Has anyone just gone to sit by the field or stall the horse is in and done nothing but just sit there and maybe read a book?If most of your activity is directed towards the horse, albeit doing what you would do for normal horses (ie tossing in hay, filling water, emptying grain etc) this horse may not be used to those actions and because they are foreign to him, they are scary to him. What you are doing may actually be causing him more harm and so you need to find a more non threatening way to take care of him.

        By sitting near his area reading (but always keeping an eye on him) you are showing him that you aren't stalking him. He will watch you cautiously and be fearful of every move so you will have to move sloooooooooooowly. Try not to sneeze or cough. It will scare him.

        As silly as it was, the movie the Horse Whisperer has a similar scene where he is sitting in the field being non threatening and allowing the horse to relax around him. You won't get the same dramatic results of him walking up to you and letting you catch him within a few hours but you will be earning his trust by not being a threatening being.

        By ignoring him and not pressuring him, you will be doing more than you think. You have to really study behavior and herd dynamics to get through to these kinds of horses and it takes longer than what most people have. But you have to earn his trust by not expecting him to be warm and cuddly from Day 1. You have to understand him and what he is going through and adjust yourself to that. You can't demand that he acts like every other horse in the barn because he can't be that right now. He needs to be him and you need to be able to say that you can adjust what you do to help him get through his fears.

        Try to slide his hay under the boards into his field or stall. Tossing hay can be very scary to a fearful horse. It can look like a predator leaping. Use milk jugs to fill his water- they make less noise than a hose. (and it's ok if he has a dirty bucket for now.) And grain is a whole other issue if he really needs it, slide it in under the ring or door. Just stop and think about how noisy and scary the normal every day things you do actually are and try to think of quieter less intimidating ways to do his chores.

        He needs to know that people aren't going to hurt him and you have to do things to show him that he isn't your target. Horses are herd animals and if he is separated, he will feel vulnerable and so the things that you do can make his vulnerability escalate to the point where he is dangerous. He needs to know that you are ok and you aren't going to hurt him so to get that message across you really need to step back from him, and try things from a different direction. In time, if you are consistent you will gain his trust and you can continue with the baby steps with him until he gains confidence in you , and himself as a herd member as I'm pretty sure that he is pretty insecure about himself just as much as he is about you.

        I hope that this makes sense to you. Understanding behavior issues is more than just analyzing and trying to correct his faults, it's about understanding your role in causing his problems and knowing what you can do to change yourself to help him change himself. Remember we don't ride every horse the same way and we don't handle every horse the same as well. Some take more and some take less and some need nothing and some need a whole lot. You have to be able to adapt to his needs while you ask him to adapt to yours.

        Yes drugs are an option but realistically if you can't brush this horse you can't inject him. There are feed through sedatives but that is only a quick fix that doesn't address the real issue. You can have him calmer but that doesn't mean that he will accept what you are trying to accomplish whil ehe is drugged.

        Euthanasia is a personal decision and no, you shouldn't take everyone's opinions personally but you should be realistic about it. Yes it is a hard decision but living in fear is even worse. He is afraid of you and you are afraid of him and so no one is going to accomplish anything but being scared. If you can't work through his issues on your timeline and not his, then euthanasia needs to be considered.

        I need to go to sleep now but I hope that I have made some sense in this post. I'm really tired I know some people will not agree with me but this is the true core of training: understanding behavior and instincts. No training is going to work without understanding the true self and heritage.

        Good luck. I hope that it goes well for you both, one way or another.

        Comment


        • #24
          As a last ditch effort, you might try giving him a shot of fluphenazine (sp?) It is a long-acting (about a month) 'antipsychotic' sort of drug. It may be if you can just take the 'edge' off - you might be able to get through to him. A friend had a dressage horse that had been mentally 'fried' with harsh training in Portugal before she got him - she'd had him for years and years and was never able to get him over his almost panic over some movements/exercises. She gave him maybe 2 courses of the fluphen. and it made a huge difference. Even after it wore off, the horse was better - like he had a chance to realize doing these things was not going to hurt/scare him like it had before. She was even able to show him (after the drugs wore off) for the first time ever.

          That said, I have no problem euthanasia in this sort of situation. It is not worth getting hurt, and, as others have mentioned, an always-scared, always uneasy horse cannot be a happy horse.
          Donerail Farm
          www.donerailfarm.com
          http://donerailfarm.wordpress.com/

          Comment


          • #25
            Euthanasia.

            Obviously I haven't seen the horse and only know what you've told us about it...but IME horses with that "flinchiness" or propensity to suddenly overreact to things, don't grow out of that behavior and can't be trained out of it. Even in a well trained horse that kind of behavior is a problem. And because those over-reactions are so unpredictable, there's not very much a handler or caretaker can do to protect themselves.

            So to sum it up, here you've got an adult horse with no training that is completely wild and seems to have the "freak out" gene. As far as I can see, unless you have some magical pasture out back where the horse could live without needing to be touched by humans, then this horse has pretty much zero prospect for a reasonable future. And I truly mean a "magical" pasture--one that takes care of shots and wormings and vet, farrier and dentist. Even if you are comfortable putting yourself at risk, are you willing to ask other people like vets and farriers to do so?

            You are absolutely right, there are so many sound, sane, and TAME horses out there that are in need of help finding a good future, it is a shame to waste time or get yourself hurt dealing with a dangerous one. I don't mean to sound cold-hearted. Yes, I'm sure there is some training technique that could help this horse, but is it worth it? How likely do you think you are to get him to a point where he could be trusted to go to a new home? How long might that take? And keep in mind, the people who are shopping for a rehabbed rescue are not usually the pros. They will be amateurs, teenagers, and well-intentioned beginners.

            Yes, there probably are idealistic people out there who will judge you for putting this horse down. Being responsible isn't always fun, easy, or popular.

            Comment


            • #26
              Think about not only what's best for you, but what's best for the animal. Right now, it sounds like this horse is living in fear. If it's truly the case that you can't even catch him in his stall, it's likely that this state of fear is constant. It also sounds like this horse has reached a point that you are not able to provide training or adequate care for him (this is understandable). If you are not in the position (mentally or physically) to place him with someone that specializes in very, very extreme cases like this, then he's not likely to improve.

              Imagine living your life in fear. Constant fear. Every time someone looked at you, your flight instincts kicked in. What would be worse? Remaining in this constant state of fear or being humanely euthanized? Euthanasia is *not* an evil option.

              We had a pony over the summer that was super kid safe, carted a few short stirrup riders around, etc. One day, his owner (a 6'4" man) turned on the clippers to do his bridlepath. The second the clippers went on, the pony attacked him. As in, went after him, up on his hind legs, striking at his head and face. The owner ended up with severe, severe facial lacerations (staples, stitches, several visits to a plastic surgeon), a head injury, and spent a lot of time in the hospital. To put things in perspective, the owner is a farrier that has over 40 years of horse experience. This was simply a case of an unpredictably dangerous animal that had no place being around others, much less children. He was euthanized a week following this episode.

              You have to think of the consequences of owning this type of horse. Aside from all the emotional stuff, which is quite heavy, you have to realize that there are other components. What if the horse were to hurt someone that came to the farm? Even if it were a close friend or relative, it's typically insurance companies that sue you, not individual parties. What if the horse were to injure himself in a manner that needed medical attention, but his inability to be handled prevented him from being tended to?

              There is only one option in my book.
              Here today, gone tomorrow...

              Comment


              • #27
                wow, you have a tough road ahead making this decision. I have had more than my share of not quite right horses come through. Time and patience ahs always helped them blossom into usable good citizens. but there have been the rare few in my career that just weren't all there.

                Regardless of what you decide, I think you have gotten good thoughts from everyone on both sides of the fence. Let me tell you one last golden rule.

                No horse on this green earth is worth on hair on your head.

                Do not let your heart lead your head where it shouldn't be. You could get hurt, bad. And then your life will change for the worse. Be careful. Be rational. Be fair.
                ...don't sh** where you eat...

                Comment


                • #28
                  I find it interesting that most folks jump to the conclusion that an animal who is terrified has been abused somehow.

                  As a breeder, and having had experience with dog siblings raised by the same person, I just want to say that some animals are just scared for NO reason.

                  I had a filly who was mine from stallion-shopping on. Was never, ever hit or rushed or anything. She HATED a halter to go over her ears. If you didn't know her history, you would assume 'abused' because she was so head shy. Stupid head shy. Nothing ever happened from a human to cause it. (if anything ever actually DID happen... Not convinced it did... )

                  'Nother example I've seen twice, full sibling puppies raised in the same environment. One is calm and trusting, the other is a scaredy cat.

                  My point is just that sometimes it's not even about humans. It's just how the animal is hardwired.

                  There are some terrific suggestions here to look into. Mine would include making sure there isn't a whiff of alfalfa anywhere. I have a horse who is the empitome of manners, whose little brains leak out his little ears on as little as a teaspoon of the stuff in a supplement. And he craves it like a crack addict if it's around. He is literally 'uncomfortable in his skin' if he's getting it, but also just doesn't see the humans around him, so then when he spooks at nothing, he'll go right over/through you or whatever. Remove the allergen, and he's back to his absolutely perfect manners, with total respect for body space etc. MSM has the same effect on him in too large a dose.

                  But finally, when I was the "second chance" for a lab who had supposedly bitten a child at a birthday party... (no witnesses but the child) I discovered she was quite aggressive... and she started killing small animals. I talked to the vet about options. I was already her *second* chance. The vet said soemthing I've always kept in mind since. Kai wasn't being bad, and couldn't understand why/what she was always in trouble for. Crated and kenneled for safety reasons, despite being Advanced Obidience trained... She was basically miserable trying to fit into a world that she didn't fit in to. Not her fault, not one bit her fault, but how stressful it must be for her to just to have instincts she had no control over, that training didn't help her to control, that were in the end dangerous...

                  I guess I see always being terrified, to the point of dangerous, as a pretty stressful 'quality of life.'

                  It would be lovely if something suggested here worked. The Fluphen is interesting--the results posted from the one horse... I wonder if it works like some psych drugs in that it helps to rebalance whatever is off in the brain chemistry.

                  But, at the end of the day, horses are horses, and people are PEOPLE. No person is worth a horse. Not one.
                  InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    You've gotten fabulous advice, and I have nothing to offer in that regard - just my sincerest sympathies. You will know what to do and when the time is right.
                    www.specialhorses.org
                    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by cyndi View Post
                      As a last ditch effort, you might try giving him a shot of fluphenazine (sp?) It is a long-acting (about a month) 'antipsychotic' sort of drug. It may be if you can just take the 'edge' off - you might be able to get through to him. A friend had a dressage horse that had been mentally 'fried' with harsh training in Portugal before she got him - she'd had him for years and years and was never able to get him over his almost panic over some movements/exercises. She gave him maybe 2 courses of the fluphen. and it made a huge difference. Even after it wore off, the horse was better - like he had a chance to realize doing these things was not going to hurt/scare him like it had before. She was even able to show him (after the drugs wore off) for the first time ever.

                      That said, I have no problem euthanasia in this sort of situation. It is not worth getting hurt, and, as others have mentioned, an always-scared, always uneasy horse cannot be a happy horse.
                      This. Exactly. I have seen fluphen be a huge help with horses that have been traumatized. Used it myself with one horse, with mediocre results (this one hadn't been traumatized ). If that doesn't make him markedly more comfortable, put him down. You would be doing him a kindness.
                      In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                      A life lived by example, done too soon.
                      www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by pintopiaffe View Post
                        The Fluphen is interesting--the results posted from the one horse... I wonder if it works like some psych drugs in that it helps to rebalance whatever is off in the brain chemistry.
                        You're sharp. Fluphen is actually a human use anti-psychotic, in the same drug "family" as Thorazine.
                        In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                        A life lived by example, done too soon.
                        www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Just to put it out there... Maybe a trainer *would* want him -- one who specializes in this sort of thing? Like a Buck Brannaman-type or something (hopefully a horseman and not a yo-yo)?

                          Sounds totally poopy... best wishes with whatever you decide!
                          Will He Win
                          May 3, 1989 - March 22, 2010
                          I will miss you every day until I see you again. I love you, Willy.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Wow...I really appreciate all the advice and support. I needed some perspective.

                            It's funny that a couple of people mentioned long-term tranquilizers because that is our next step. Not sure about what or administration but taking that edge of this guy will make everyone's life easier.

                            My worry is the unpredictability. You can do something you've done the same way a million times but you never know when he will lose it. I wouldn't take on the liability of having someone work with him, or sending him "down the road" to who knows what fate.

                            I think he was born this way and bad handling made it worse. He is wired differently. He can be acting very sweet and even sociable one second and then be taking off over the top of you in the next.

                            I know in my gut what the right thing is to do and I think that may be what we do end up doing. I'd love to come back in a few months and say it all worked out and was a happy ending but sometimes that only happens in the movies. We do have another horse like that but he has a much different personality and I felt comfortable around him from the get go. Not at all with this one.

                            My husband is more comfortable working with this horse and an excellent horseman but the horse hates men. So I'm the only one that can catch him and neither of us feel safe handling him alone so we do it together for the most part. But there are days I have to handle him alone, and even worse, I have to think about what we will do when we go away and someone else is taking care of the farm. I wouldn't feel comfortable having anyone else do it at this point.

                            As you can tell, this is really upsetting and stressful. I've had one other horse I ended up having this same feeling with...and after one particularly bad incident walked away from the whole situation (the horse wasn't mine). The horse ended up killing itself months later...that no sense of self preservation for itself or rider caught up with it.

                            So...now we go into our next effort to give this a little time before making any final decisions. This is tough...

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              We had a horse here like that in for training and he had a brother too. His brother was a bit better but not by much. They were 16+ hand Percheron crosses. The owners would catch the brother and let the more reactive gelding just follow.

                              At age 5 they had never been seperated, never really groomed, bathed or really even "touched" etc. And this one (Tucker) when cornered would jump out of a stall, roundpen you name it. They had both been purchased at an auction at 18 months old and been on the same farm since.

                              So long story short, I did seperate them and when I did I put the more Tucker in with a pasture of ubber friendly horses, not that my other ones are not. Plus I moved my alpha gelding to another pasture in with the brother and the two brothers could call to each other, which lasted maybe a day, but were a few hundred feet apart.

                              For the first 30+ days all I did With Tucker, multiple times a day was work to walk up to him, he had a halter on, touch/scratch him and walk away. Sometimes it took 30 minutes to get that accomplished. I would also walk up to my other horses in that pasture and do the same. I never asked Tucker to "do" anything but just stand there. Then I would walk up to him, scratch him, talk to him and then just stand there. It was all a process.

                              After 90 days of incrimental gains, honest if you sneezed he would jump out of his skin at times, I got him riding. We had our moments trust me but I stuck with his horse where others gave up. I taught this horse to ride W/T, bathe, fly spray, stand for grooming, farrier, load, ground drive (on and off the farm), lunge-all the basics.

                              I taught him a "new" normal. Let the thinking side of his brain take over the reactive side of his brain. Some horses, just like people are simply more reactive (before they think) and it gets in the way. Teaching them to think first, which I will add is a long tedious process, can be done. It's not for the faint of heart but the rewards are tremendous.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                You have had lots of great ideas given... it depends on how much time you want to put into him, meanwhile working around him and surviving uninjured.

                                Sometimes pain can make a horse that has been progressing well in training become unpredictable. I've seen it several times, & in each case the horse was finally determined to have "something up" in the spine &/or hips. Who knows what from -- could have been accidents, heck could've happened during birth. Each of those horses was put down. Besides being unrideable, they weren't even able to be comfortable standing around. You can't save 'em all.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by ESG View Post
                                  You're sharp. Fluphen is actually a human use anti-psychotic, in the same drug "family" as Thorazine.
                                  IIRC there were some show humpers in Athens caught with it in their system.

                                  FWIW I give my horse 3 ml Ace in some grain about a half hour before I need to do something, then leave her in her stall to chill.

                                  Evidently her breeder's husband died and she was sold as a mostly unhandled 3 YO. Her new trainer got injured when he cornered her. She went up and down the east coast, producing several nice SANE foals along the way and possibly injuring one other person until a local dealer bought her.

                                  My SIL boards at his barn and I saw her in a dark filthy stall with a catch rope.

                                  Of course I had to rescue her, to the tune of $1700 including delivery to my round pen.

                                  I kept her in there for about a month, with hay and water of course, but if she wanted to go out and eat grass she had to let me halter her.

                                  There are still things she won't tolerate. She did break my finger when it got caught as I was trying to snap a lead to her halter.

                                  Luckily for her I have the room to keep her with my collection of pasture pets. I'll never sell her.
                                  She's shedding now and you would think she would appreciate a good grooming.
                                  Nope.
                                  She will tolerate it, but she doesn't show any appreciation of pleasure in it.
                                  I wasn't always a Smurf
                                  Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                                  "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                  The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I'm struggling with this one. We've folks here suggesting just kill the horse and yet there's nothing posted here that gives me any hint that this isn't a situation that can't be recovered.

                                    There really isn't sufficient information here to provide any advice of substance and I want to ask a shed load of questions:

                                    You said

                                    "Resue" horse that came to my farm not long ago
                                    How long ago?

                                    You say he's not with you long and you've no history and he's young and then suggest that there's something psycho about the horse because he's not handling, not catching, not haltering, not riding etc. etc. etc.

                                    If he's not been there long then why are you riding him??

                                    Precisely what did you do when he first came to you?

                                    What have you been doing with him day to day?

                                    How have you assessed what he knows and what he might, and might not, have done?

                                    You said you have "no" history but you also say he was "rescued". Rescued from what??? What were his circumstances when he was acquired by the owner???

                                    What experience have you got with remedial recovery of spoilt horses?


                                    You've said "no trainer would take him on".

                                    REALLY????

                                    What precisely have you done to hire a trainer? I've never personally come across a trainer yet that can't manage what's described here.

                                    I've posted the following previously but I'm going to say it again and again and again because I really utterly dislike these postings when what's required is time and effort and money spent training and what's suggested is a bullet or a needle!

                                    I really do feel strongly that the word "rescue" is used wayyyy too frequently.

                                    It's used by people who have got a cheap or free horse in the hope that they've got a bargain or something of worth.

                                    I feel even more strongly that when horses have been spoilt and had a poor start and need to be remediated that they're ONLY taken on by someone who really and truly can give them a chance and commit to that.

                                    Spoilt horses are NEVER easy and I've seen too many passed from pillar to post and along the way just getting worse and worse until they're destined for slaughter.

                                    The thing is with spoilt horses is that they've often become totally insecure and lost their ability to trust or have confidence and IME they're never bad, just confused and bewildered and don't know what they should do.

                                    Too often they end up in the hands of folks who really don't know what to do or what to try next and who want to fix the problem quickly. And its just NEVER, as in NO WAY EVER, going to happen. Or else they are with someone who feels sorry for them and hence isn't able to be their leader. Rather they're thinking about what they might have been through and over-compensating.

                                    In my experience it's never the case that they can't become viable... providing they don't have serious physical or health problems.

                                    But this presumes that they go to someone who can commit what is needed to them

                                    Horses live in the here and now and so its really important that they're handled consistently and, when they're troubled, firmly and with discipline. You can't let a spoilt horse learn that its going to be getting cuddles and kisses when its demonstrating negative behaviour. Neither can you piss about with it if you don't know what you're doing and haven't got really good rock solid experience and confidence to manage the situation.

                                    For me this is the crux of the matter. You take a horse on knowing its got problems and you have to make that commitment. If you want to give it a chance, then you have to give it time and attention as well as positive training which establishes you as its leader.

                                    The last one I took on as my own personal "retirement project". He came here on "his last chance"; to be put down, the owner having succeeded in getting the insurance loss of use payment. I got him just over 2 years ago. He wasn't sat on in over 18 months after I got him and was just chilling and being handled consistently. When people asked me how long it would be before I started to work him I said "when he's ready"

                                    I've had them that reared and come over backwards. That come backwards at you with intent on letting you have both back barrels. That rear and strike out with the forelegs. That grab you if you dare go anywhere near their front end. They've all come good, albeit some of them you ALWAYS have to do everything "text book" correct and others have a slightly unusual plot.

                                    I never ordinarily tell folks their backgrounds. It becomes irrelevant. I'm not one myself who ever wants to know what happened to a horse or what it does. I know from decades of experience that how a horse is with one person is most likely to be totally different with another after time. Folks just need to know what to do and what not to do. That's all there is to is once history is history.

                                    That means I tend to stick with them.

                                    The only time I give up on a horse is when the quality of it's life is so poor that it's suffering and with absolutely no prognosis of a good recovery.

                                    I don't consider it a "rescue" if you're just going to take it and put it down.

                                    That's just putting a horse down. Nothing more nothing less. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's not the right thing to do sometimes. I've done it myself. But in my mind, that's not rescue. Makes no difference to me whether it's put down immediately or in 3 months time because nothing changed. By my definition it's not "rescued" if it's dead.

                                    Neither is it "rescue" if you're just letting it lead a solitary life as a pasture ornament because it's dangerous and remains evil or in severe pain. That's just a change of environment.

                                    Neither is it "rescue" if you take a horse that has fierce intent e.g. biting, kicking whatever and just pussy foot around it. That's just a change of scenery with a new cautious owner.

                                    Nor do I consider it "rescue" if it's taken in by someone who doesn't have the wit and where with all: the skill, time, experience, finance, facilities* to devote and dedicate. That's just a change of ownership. (*insert as appropriate)

                                    I personally can't begin to understand when I read about folks that obtain free or cheap horses and expect them to behave, be impeccably trained, easy to handle, be fit and healthy, easy to manage. I've always believed you get what you pay for and there's NO such thing as a free horse. (*insert as appropriate)

                                    It's beyond my logic to understand why some people would get a poorly behaved or bad mannered horse and put it in a situation where it can injure someone. And to expose a child or innocent member of the public to such an animal is well.... just mind-blowingly irresponsible, culpably negligent and dim witted! The one I got that I posted about earlier aside from other issues, was a "rearer and strike out". He was put into a stable with low roof beams. Well out of the way of where any customers might go. For the first month, only ever led on a coiled 30 foot line by either me or my senior staff and when wearing hat, BP, gloves, steel toe capped boots and carrying a length of plastic poly-pipe. To expect a horse that has developed bad behaviour to just change because it's moved home is naive in the extreme.

                                    I find myself often saying the same things to folks when it comes to training/recovering horses.

                                    - Keep doing the same, you keep getting the same
                                    - Want something different, then DO something different
                                    - You get out what you put in
                                    - You want it to have a chance, then GIVE it a chance
                                    - Don't think you can learn how to train a horse by trying to train it.
                                    - If you're not up to the job then don't take it on
                                    - Never pick a fight, there'll be a loser
                                    - Doesn't matter how it got this way, it needs to change
                                    - No such thing as a free horse

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by katarine View Post
                                      Who cares what other people think?

                                      If he kills you, then what?

                                      I am all about the economics at the end of the day. There is no market for this animal. You say you know horses, and you know he's dangerously tough. Frankly, the answer is quite plain to me.

                                      THIS......get over what 'other people' think.....they're not in danger, nor know what you do....pooey on them....do what you know to be right...if it were me, euth would be it.

                                      As in people, there are two trains of thought about death....you either just die and don't exist anymore, so what would you know about your own dying? It wouldn't be an issue....or, you're religious and think animals and people go to some heaven...that's better than here, no??? Better than being scared out of your wits around people on earth....
                                      "As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."- William James
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                      Proud member of the Wheat Loss Clique.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                                        I'm struggling with this one. We've folks here suggesting just kill the horse and yet there's nothing posted here that gives me any hint that this isn't a situation that can't be recovered.
                                        But at WHAT COST, Thomas??? OP already said OP got badly hurt by this horse, and OP knows how to deal with difficult horses...

                                        What are we to see OP gets out of this situation? Major injury, but 4 years down the road the horse is somewhat salvaged?

                                        why do you think the horse cares so much about whether it dies a gentle death or not? Animals know far more about death and what's after than we do, and I don't believe they fear it. They fear pain, just like we do....this one obviously has seen some pain, and is not willing to deal with any more....
                                        "As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."- William James
                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                        Proud member of the Wheat Loss Clique.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Melelio View Post
                                          But at WHAT COST, Thomas???
                                          Haven't got a clue and neither has anyone from what's been posted. It's a "fact free" posting!

                                          OP already said OP got badly hurt by this horse, and OP knows how to deal with difficult horses...
                                          Yes he/she did but also said the horse had come "not long ago!" Anyone with half a clue that knows how to deal with difficult horses knows they don't get instantly sorted!


                                          What are we to see OP gets out of this situation? Major injury, but 4 years down the road the horse is somewhat salvaged?
                                          Now I was getting the impression that the OP was a barn owner?? That the horse had just arrived. That they were struggling to do anything with it at all.

                                          But yet we're told that

                                          He now goes out in a small paddock and I can catch him.
                                          So excuse me if I don't take the title of the thread at face value. Short while and already the horse can be caught. So it's learnt something quickly!

                                          But I picked up a brush today while holding him and he bolted so quickly that it was a very close brush with getting hurt again. Just the tiniest thing will set him off and he has no sense of self preservation for himself or the people around him. He's lucky he hasn't hurt himself badly with some of the stuff he's pulled
                                          How comes the horse is loose to bolt off????? So just train the darned thing and if you don't know how to, then get someone who does.

                                          Up to them whether they want to get something out of it or not. I'm getting a strong impression though that the OP is out of his/her depth and as such I'd be advising that they shouldn't be expecting to get anything out of it!

                                          why do you think the horse cares so much about whether it dies a gentle death or not? Animals know far more about death and what's after than we do, and I don't believe they fear it. They fear pain, just like we do....this one obviously has seen some pain, and is not willing to deal with any more....
                                          So kill it then but don't come out with a load of bull and say it's been "rescued" or come looking for validation!

                                          Last I looked up the word "rescue" it didn't mean killing!

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X