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Does your horse groom you?

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  • #41
    Mine have all tried it at one time or another and it is strongly but lovingly discouraged, I just don't wan't their teeth that close to me. I take at as proof that I'm doing something that makes them feel good.
    "My biggest fear is that when I die my husband is going to try to sell all my horses and tack for what I told him they cost."

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    • #42
      Originally posted by dwblover View Post
      Geeze, the horse is just showing affection thus far. It's a form of communication. My OTTB nuzzles me all the time, it's sweet and he'd never think of biting me. I don't see a problem with it unless this young horse tries to nip ONE time. That first time would lead to me promptly showing him that's NOT allowed and that would be the end of the nuzzling.
      I totally agree with this. Horses are smart AND subtle, you can communicate with them and let them know when they have gone too far and they get it. My mare loves to rest her chin on my head if I am in a seated position, say, sitting cross legged in her stall and hanging out with her. Sometimes I think my being suddenly 'smaller' brings out her nurturing side. She will nuzzle and lip the top of my head, sort of grooming my 'mane'. I think it is very sweet and affectionate and it has not been a problem for 4 years now. If she gets carried away I just push her face away and give her the uh-uh-uh sound. The only draw back is a little horse spit in my hair, LOL. Honestly, they are beings with feelings too, of course you need to maintain an alpha-like stance and project that you are the leader they can respect and also trust, but to me it is a real double standard to say, well I can touch you whenever I like, I can show affection to you but you must never show it to me unless I somehow give the command that it is OK. I think it can be more subtle and natural than that. Horses are very subtle, if they gently approach you to show affection, not rude, bossy, pushy, I think that is grand. You can always take it down a notch or indicate for them to cool it.

      ETA: I have heard young males can get overly mouthy and that can turn into a nipping problem, my mare's breeder actually had a colt who was terribly nippy and it was a real pain to deal with him, so it may be a case by case situation. I am getting my first gelding, four years old, who is mouthy and interactive in a way that I think is really neat, but I will have to see if it escalates, and/or also not sure if boys tend to be more rough in general that way?

      ETA/PS: Also wanted to mention that there have been times that my mare does this nuzzling thing, when has been especially comforting, such as when things have not been going so well in my life. I would even go so far as to call it a healing experience... and very healing, not just a little healing. Horses are great healers, everyone knows this, that is why the horse therapy business is booming right now. I think it is entirely possible to allow a horse to show affection and to have a little freedom to communicate without jeopardizing the chain of command, but to each his own. Generally people don't give animals nearly enough credit. But of course if you had a die-hard nipper it would be another story.
      Last edited by 2greyhorses; Mar. 30, 2010, 03:07 PM.

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      • #43
        YES..he is coming around. He only does it when he is feeling lovey and snuggly.

        I was having a bad day last week and I sat in his stall with him. He nuzzled into my body snuffed my hair.
        Insignia MC - Spanish PRE mare
        Kenny - Hanoverian Gelding
        Tuggy - RIP at the bridge (9/12/2016)
        Theodore the Boxer - RIP at the the bridge (10/5/2017)

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        • #44
          Originally posted by bounce View Post
          I kind of feel sad for those of you who have not enjoyed the grooming experience with your horse
          I feel sorry for the horses who think it's ok to grab at my jacket while I'm walking by and then get smacked for it.
          Jigga:
          Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

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          • #45
            Originally posted by pines4equines View Post
            Mutual grooming has a lot to do with pecking order.
            Hmmm, I'm not convinced.

            If you watch horses in the pasture grooming, they will have little "disagreements" as they mutually groom.
            How often does that happen? When I mutual groom with horses, there are no disagreements at all - I wonder what that means!

            Some people say it is the dominant horse that initiates mutual grooming. Other say it is the subordinate. I have seen both - so maybe it isn't so important.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by 2greyhorses View Post
              My mare loves to rest her chin on my head if I am in a seated position, say, sitting cross legged in her stall and hanging out with her.
              A Welsh pony stallion I knew for 27 years used to rest his chin on my head when I sat on the ground or on the tree stump in his paddock, or in the dip between shoulder and neck - and he would sometimes go into REM sleep in that position.

              Sometimes I think my being suddenly 'smaller' brings out her nurturing side. She will nuzzle and lip the top of my head, sort of grooming my 'mane'. I think it is very sweet and affectionate and it has not been a problem for 4 years now.
              If it's not a problem for you, it's not a problem!

              of course you need to maintain an alpha-like stance and project that you are the leader they can respect and also trust,
              Not if one recognizes the essential difference between dominance and leadership, and the fact that the alpha-dominant is not necessarily the individual other horses choose to follow and trust not to lead them into danger (which is more a function of age and experience).

              but to me it is a real double standard to say, well I can touch you whenever I like, I can show affection to you but you must never show it to me unless I somehow give the command that it is OK. I think it can be more subtle and natural than that. Horses are very subtle, if they gently approach you to show affection, not rude, bossy, pushy, I think that is grand. You can always take it down a notch or indicate for them to cool it.
              If only everyone had your attitude and readiness to appreciate the subtle. I, like other horses, do not respond well to the rude, bossy and pushy - and avoid inflicting those behaviours on them in return.

              ETA: I have heard young males can get overly mouthy and that can turn into a nipping problem, my mare's breeder actually had a colt who was terribly nippy and it was a real pain to deal with him, so it may be a case by case situation. I am getting my first gelding, four years old, who is mouthy and interactive in a way that I think is really neat, but I will have to see if it escalates, and/or also not sure if boys tend to be more rough in general that way?
              Yes indeed. Youngsters, especially males, tend to be very mouthy. I prefer to nip this in the bud at the earliest opportunity, because it can develop into such a nuisance habit - not by getting in a flap about it, but by quietly and consistently making nibbling uncomfortable enough for the colt that he quickly decides I'm not good to chew on. There are various non-painful ways of doing this - one doesn't need to use hot potatoes or sharp objects!

              Agree about horses being great healers. An affectionate nuzzle from my horse does far more good for me than any drug could.

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              • #47
                When my mare was younger (I got her at 4) she was not allowed to have her muzzle anywhere near me. She was very mouthy and no matter what she thought she was doing, I always assumed it was going to end in her biting me. At the same time, I have an older OTTB who I allow mutual grooming with - you curry her withers and she rubs her nose back and forth on someone's forehead if they're within range. Honestly, it's pretty hilarious and she's always mindful and gentle about it.

                My mare is now 9 and I do allow her some nuzzling (like a previous poster's horse, she really likes ponytails for some reason). She's learned enough to know that the minute those teeth come out she's getting a pop on the muzzle, so she is very careful about what she does. She does not like the mutual grooming - she does instead what I call the "anteater pose" where she stretches her neck out and really stretches her lips forward and cocks her head. It looks hilarious and the kids at the barn always get a kick out of her yoga stretches during shedding season.
                http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/profile/Ashley26

                "You keep one leg on one side, the other leg on the other side, and your mind in the middle." -- Henry Taylor, "Riding Lesson"

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                • #48
                  i am always thrilled when my mare grooms me back...she's not always the most demonstrative but every so often (prob a dozen times in 5 years) she will be in a sweet mood and groom me. particularly when she's getting a massage and i'm holding her lead line...she will go to town on me. i love it. her thing seems to be just resting her head on my chest...i love that too. i will cradle her head and just stand there with her as long as she'll let me.

                  my gelding grooms and licks me all the time. i think he might be a little starved for affection bc it's just him and her, and she won't mutually groom or play with him...she's a bit standoffish. i enjoy it and think it's cute. if either of them ever use teeth (which they occasionally will) i just correct the behavior...not really a big deal to me.
                  My mare wonders about all this fuss about birth control when she's only seen a handful of testicles in her entire life. Living with an intact male of my species, I feel differently! WAYSIDE

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                  • #49
                    Hay

                    Previous poster said: "How often does that happen? When I mutual groom with horses, there are no disagreements at all - I wonder what that means!"

                    A "disagreement" can be as big as a raised leg or leaning in towards you or the other horse or something as subtle as an ear cocked backward. They work on their pecking order in such subtle ways that we may not notice it and are always working on it.

                    I also noticed and this may be wrong but a dominant thing is for a horse to bring his head over the other horse's head. That is a no-no for a subordinate horse to bring his head over the dominant horse's head. So I started blocking my horse from doing that. When he goes to move his head over mine (he's quite tall), even if it's to look at something, I raise my arm and hand (like I'm raising my hand in class) and simply block him. No spanking, just a block. Something I've been doing. Not sure whether this is true or not but something I've started doing. I'll check in on this later.

                    In fact, it is incredibly interesting to just bring your lawn chair to the fence line and watch the subtle to not-so-subtle interaction of turned-out horses....Or maybe I need to get out more!
                    Sorry! But that barn smell is my aromatherapy!
                    One of our horsey bumper stickers! www.horsehollowpress.com
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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by pines4equines View Post
                      I also noticed and this may be wrong but a dominant thing is for a horse to bring his head over the other horse's head. That is a no-no for a subordinate horse to bring his head over the dominant horse's head. So I started blocking my horse from doing that. When he goes to move his head over mine (he's quite tall), even if it's to look at something, I raise my arm and hand (like I'm raising my hand in class) and simply block him. No spanking, just a block. Something I've been doing. Not sure whether this is true or not but something I've started doing. I'll check in on this later.
                      Some people do think that it's sign of dominance, but whether it really is is another matter! All kinds of innocent behaviour, such as yawning, can be and has been interpreted as a sign of dominance - so I tend to take such pronouncements with a pinch of salt. However, if it bothers you for your horse to move his head over yours, then by all means stop it. In any case, it's sensible to discourage head swinging around people in case he inadvertently knocks into someone. Blocking is a good response.

                      In fact, it is incredibly interesting to just bring your lawn chair to the fence line and watch the subtle to not-so-subtle interaction of turned-out horses....Or maybe I need to get out more!
                      Agreed!

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                      • #51
                        Hay

                        "Agreed" that I need to get out more? Or the sitting by the fence? Arh, arh!

                        I do need to get out more!

                        Have fun and nice to have this conversation via the internet!
                        Sorry! But that barn smell is my aromatherapy!
                        One of our horsey bumper stickers! www.horsehollowpress.com
                        Add Very Funny Horse Bumper Stickers on facebook

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                        • #52
                          Who cares if it's dominant behavior or not? I don't care what the horse thinks of his behavior. I find it rude and I don't allow it. So my horses are taught not to do it.

                          And, as another poster pointed out, I'm not going to allow your horse to come up and put his mouth on me either.

                          I do think one is setting the horse up to reap some very unexpected rewards by allowing him to mouth people, or turn his bottom towards people to solicit scratching, or by teaching a horse it's ok to invade a person's space uninvited.
                          I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by pines4equines View Post
                            "Agreed" that I need to get out more? Or the sitting by the fence? Arh, arh!
                            I meant "sitting by the fence"... honest!

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                            • #54
                              I think P'aint has a completely different perspective than some of us. I'm not that interested in being dominant over my horses, we just chug along quite well with mutual consent. The youngie needs more guidance, but the mare can understand just a finger raised, pointed or a quiet "uh uh". I'd never expect her nuzzling to escalate. None of my horses ever has so I don't think it is an issue.
                              Meh - each to their own when it comes to handling. Less is more for me.
                              Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Foxtrot's View Post
                                I'm not that interested in being dominant over my horses, we just chug along quite well with mutual consent.
                                That's my style too! However, lots of folks do believe that it is essential for a safe, harmonious relationship to be dominant (and not simply in control). That's understandable.

                                The youngie needs more guidance, but the mare can understand just a finger raised, pointed or a quiet "uh uh". I'd never expect her nuzzling to escalate. None of my horses ever has so I don't think it is an issue.
                                I have to say that I have never encountered those "unexpected rewards" in all the time I have worked with horses. But then I believe good manners are entirely compatible with nuzzling (rudeness being in the eye of the beholder) - it's where you draw the line and how you teach the horse not to cross that line.

                                Meh - each to their own when it comes to handling. Less is more for me.
                                Absolutely. I wouldn't presume to dictate how others should view or handle their horses. I know what works for me, and other people are free to follow my example if they like what they see.

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                                • #56
                                  My Rileigh will groom me if I let him, but usually I don't. I used to allow it when he was very young and skittish, as I thought it was good that he was developing a relationship w/ me. He started to slightly take advantage of me letting him use his mouth, though, and got a little nippy.
                                  He's very mouthy, anyway(usually just nibbling on clothes and pulling on shoes, but occasionally he'll surprise you and just randomly turn around and determinedly try to skin you alive), so I try to draw a very dark thick line that precludes mouthing people in any way. Of course, when he nibbles me and I give him a smack or a pinch, then it becomes a game ...so if possible, we just don't go there - it's a no-no for him.

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                                  • #57
                                    I got one of my horses as a foal only a couple of weeks old. I knew two of his younger brothers by the same sire - both were mighty "game" biters (you know, the kind who want to see if they can nip you and escape before you can swat back? The kind that doesn't really care if they connect and can range between a complete miss and a full on hammer?) so I was determined that my boy wasn't going to bite. I very carefully spent years teaching him that he wasn't to touch me, or anyone else with his nose. At first the training was redirection (scratch mum's shoulder, not me), avoidance (leaning out of reach of his baby nose), and blocking (elbow in the way). Later it progressed to some negative reinforcement as well (usually an open handed belly slap). He was permitted to touch (without moving lips at all) once he demonstrated a clear understanding of the rules, and eventually permitted a nuzzle, but never ever lipping. He nipped me once in his life - as a weanling I bumped his flank with the fork while cleaning his stall and he automatically reached around and nipped my butt, then leaped to the back of the stall as he realized what he'd done. I didn't reprimand him because the association would have been too far gone by the time I got to him (and he plainly knew he'd done wrong), but he never bit me again and is the only horse I've ever fully trusted wouldn't bite anyone.

                                    Years later he exhibited very strange behaviour during massages and I eventually realized that he really, REALLY wanted to mutual groom during massages but had it so strongly ingrained that he must not, that he couldn't do it. He groomed the floor, or sometimes managed to bring himself to groom a soft brush that I held for him, but never me or his EMT.

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                                    • #58
                                      My horse doesnt groom me.....but he does talk to me!!!

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