Thoughts on Tire Kicker-age

[pj]

While I agree with this, I took the OP to mean she did not want to rush her search. Which is smart -- to find the right horse can take months. I wouldn't equate "willing to take the time it takes to find the right horse" with tire-kicking.

I spent several months looking for my current horse. Had the money. Drove up to 12 hours to see horses. When I found him, the deal was closed (contract, deposit, PPE, money wired, horse shipped) in 2 weeks.

This seems a bit different than saying you JUST want to look around for a few months. That sounds "tire kickery".

[caffeinated]

It's a hard balance explaining what you want and why without giving out your life story! In all fairness, people who are selling a horse privately do tend to want to know who they're selling to. A lot of private sellers WANT a general bio. .

Probably true... Some information is definitely good, as it helps us figure out if it's going to be a good match... things like "I've been riding hunters for 10 years and showing in the 3'3" divisions" or "I am an adult re-rider that would like something I can eventually get into low level eventing with"

But... I don't need to know what you eat for breakfast or the complete life story of every horse you've ever owned....

[Ozone]

The way I see it is: If at this point and time you are not currently on the market to actually buy a horse, you have no reasoning to inquiring/try horses you have no intentions of buying NOW - then you are a kicker.

Don't waste someone's time if you are not in the buying market.

Do not inquire about horses you do not have the funding for.

I only bought one horse pending vet check in a day. I have passed on bunches of them... I guess to them, I am a tire kicker! That gets back into a thread of: 15H is not 16H like you said...

[RockinHorse]

If all you want to do in the next few months is look around, then IMHO you are a tire kicker.

When you are horse shopping with the intent to buy a horse now, you are, again IMHO, not a tire kicker.

I think this is a little insulting.

Personally, as both a former trainer and seller-would prefer a client/buyer that KNOWS what they want, is up front about it, and is not IN A HURRY to buy the first thing that falls in her lap.

The next time I actually go looking for a horse-I plan on taking my sweet A$$ time finding EXACTLY what I want and not settling.

I could be very wrong here, but the OP sounds like she is a serious buyer and is just not IN A HURRY to buy

I did not mean this as an insult. I guess it would be clearer if I had stressed the word 'all' as in "If all you want to do for the next few months is look around.." meaning if you have no intention of buying anything until some future date then I consider that a tire kicker.

This says to me that even if you found a perfect horse, you are not going to buy it because you want to look around for a while and are not in the market yet.

That, to me, is not at all the same thing as saying I want to make sure I get a suitable horse even though I know it might take a while.

[katarine]

I don't mind people trying horses out if they:

Do have the money to buy the horse I'm showing them, for his asking price.

-- If they don't, and want to offer me 1K for a 2500 dollar (advertised as FIRM) horse, that is a waste and an insult.

--Do know what they WANT. If they are just vaguely thinking they want a horse in some general sense, it's terrible. They'll try a fat bay mare and upon stepping off say, you know, what I really want is a cute sorrel gelding. Got any? I'm a tiny fry, folks, I advertise what I've got to sell, it is ONE horse at a time. I make that clear on the phone this is all I got. That is a waste of my time.

--Do have some realistic sense of their own skill level. If all they've ever ridden is PawPaw's gelding, they don't know no better. I try to weed those out on the phone.


The oversharing on the phone? Drives me nuts. I don't need to know all about your accomplishments and horses and life history and why you had to sell Pete to go to college...in 1982. Really. I just don't need that. JUST tell me I rode as a kid, quit when I got married, and have been taking lessons with ___ for 6 months, I'm ready to look for a good quiet trail horse I can take out alone and board at ____. THAT is all I need to have broadcast. I'll ask to fill in the gaps.

[ILuvmyButtercups]

Lots of ads say they insist the horse they are selling goes to a "great home only!". So, it makes sense for the potential buyer to give a bio, experience, how many horses they now own, board out, keep on the farm, the sexes - that can be important - many horses are aggressive and don't mix well with mares and geldings, large herds, etc. Responsible sellers don't want a frisky or green horse going to a greenie rider, so that's a legit concern to be screened for, on both sides.

I have impulse bought plenty of horses, and regretted some purchases. I'd love this or that about it, figure I could handle any surprises, and get it home to find it is mean to my other ones, bites, wheels around to kick them.... or it cribs - the seller lied - had the horse (alone) in a hot-wired paddock. Or, I'll find it endlessly paces the fence line even if put in with a good mate. Anyway, no more - I'm looking too, and now I'll vet the sellers as well! Get recommendations, learn all I can about the horse's history, thoroughly consider its disposition when kept in a stall, outside, with others. You're buying a real live big animal, not some piece of furniture that can be hauled out to the curb, or given to your brother in law if it doesn't go with your decor, after all. Don't even worry about being thought a tire/hoof kicker - it's YOUR money, YOUR property, your responsibility once it's in your possession.

If sellers get mad when you pass, tough! If it's a great horse, he'll sell quickly, elsewhere, (if priced realistically). If anyone gets angry at still another person walking away, you know it was a horse they were just desperate to be shed of, for whatever reason they have.

[threedogpack]

this is interesting.

I'm a potential buyer.

I'm also cheap.

I read the ads carefully and pay attention to them.

If the ad says "must sell" and I know what the market is....and I make an offer, low (see above for cheap comment)...don't get all huffy and think that will make me fall over myself to buy your horse. Don't be insulted that I offered less than what you .think. the horse is worth and don't yell at me about it. YOU are the one with the horse for sale, not me. It doesn't mean I'm a tire kicker...it means that you have a horse, I made an offer and you didn't like it.

how, exactly, do you know a tire kicker from a potential buyer?

see, I'm sure that you would think I don't have the money or that I'm a tire kicker. You would be wrong on both counts. I don't come with a trainer, I don't pay cash for anything over $500 and I generally walk away from any purchase over $100 at least once. It is a test for ME to see how badly I really want that item. So by most of the criteria here, I'd be a tire kicker. If I come back, you'll have paper that is good, a phone number for the bank to make sure the funds are there and I'll leave with the horse as I will also arrive with a truck and trailer or arrangements for hauling in place.

However, I probably would not come back for most of the people here as you would assume I'm a tire kicker. Since there is another horse for sale around the next corner, you'd miss out on my money.

Here is an example.

In 2001 I went shopping for a new vehicle. I worked my way down Miracle Mile stopping at .each. dealership to inquire what they had and narrow down what I was willing to look at. Dealership #1 was very nice, showed me a number of vehicles and I went on my way. Dealership #2 had a young man come out who started out with a lovely spiel and as we wandered the lot looking, I said to him if I wanted THAT vehicle....what can you do for me? He replied: are you buying today? Me: no.... him: then why should I tell you what I can do for you?

I thanked him politely and walked away. As I was walking away, there was an older man who stopped me and asked why I was leaving so quickly. I told him I didn't find anything interesting at the moment. Notice I did not say what many here would: your sales person was rude and I won't buy anything here evah! Because maybe tomorrow Young Dude won't be there and they .will. have something i'd like.

Two dealerships later I found another young man who worked with me and I ended up choosing him. I stopped back at the #2 dealership, found the man who asked why I left so quickly and told him his sales associate had lost a sale because of his attitude.

substitute horse for vehicle.

you could easily lose a sale to me. You just never know who has the money and who doesn't, now do you? As a seller, you should always assume every person has the money.

[xQHDQ]

I really want to take my time looking around for the next few months.

This is a bad plan and screams tire kicker.

A better plan would be: you "don't mind taking your time looking around for the next few months but you are ready to buy if the right horse comes along."

You'll know the right horse when it comes along. That may be the very first horse you look at or the 20th. I'm not saying settle. There will always be horses out there better (and worse) than the one you end up buying - playing the what if game is a loosing one. If you find a horse you like, go for it.

Good luck.

[Drive NJ]

If you are serious about wanting to buy a horse - now or in the very near future - then you are not a tire kicker

AS LONG AS you are realistic enough to say that if you tried the perfect horse, in the price range you beleive its worth, that you would be willing to buy it now.

If you are not quite ready, then you should continue to do research on what are realistic prices for the type of horse you want
And (Im a great listmaker) have a very good idea of what you really do want

We were recently in the market for a couple of horses. We had very specific questions and desires.
I considered any seller who could not be bothered answering my questions to not be a serous seller.

I learned to rule out a lot of horses just from the pictures or questions
I also learned to make rapid judgements when I got to the sellers barn and would not even try the horse if it wasnt right when I got there
Didnt waste my time or theirs

Also learned what I would have to compromise and what I would just wait til I found the perfect match

Realize that for all the buyers complain about tire-kickers, there are as many sellers who really dont come up to snuff understanding the real value of their sale horse either in price or a true description of its training or behavior

So if you are only at the "trying to find out whats out there" stage, then spend some time on dreamhorse etc

But if you are really ready to buy the right horse, then you are not a tire-kicker if you go looking and the horse is not the right one for you

[saddleup]

I tried a horse last year, was very serious about him, even had him vetted (came to $800 for the PPE), but decided not to buy him. I later heard that the seller had referred to me as a "tire kicker". That was a little irritating. To me, a "tire kicker" isn't serious about buying now. Don't use the term just because someone decided against buying your horse.

[ESG]

It's a hard balance explaining what you want and why without giving out your life story! In all fairness, people who are selling a horse privately do tend to want to know who they're selling to. A lot of private sellers WANT a general bio. And they want to read in between the lines of what your financial situation is beyond the asking price.

I never, as a seller, wanted a "general bio", and I have sold both as a private individual and as a pro. And I didn't give a rat's @$$ about the financial situation of the prospective buyer, other than to make sure that s/he had the means to take care of the horse properly.

Of course, when I was selling a $7500 horse that was exactly what the buyer wanted, the fact that she drove up in a late model Porsche and took photos of the horse with a telephoto lens that probably cost more than the horse, did give me the impression that she didn't have to negotiate for what she wanted. Didn't stop her doing it, though.

[Xanthoria]

So sellers assume that buyers just love driving all over creation only to be sorely disappointed over and over...?

They can't imagine that their horse is not the supreme specimen of horseliness, so they call the person who doesn't want to buy it a tire kicker!?

Let's face it, 3/4 the horses I see are not as tall, talented, sound or good looking as the owner thinks. Will that stop me going to see a horse who *might* have been advertised truthfully? No - I want to buy a damn horse! I hate all this driving and PPE-ing and hassle!

There is a name, like tire-kicker, for sellers who falsely advertise their horses: barn blind!

I have wasted countless hours and gallons of gas in the last 6 months on barn blind owners... if one of them called me a tire kicker I'd be pretty irritated. So before sellers use that name, think carefully about whether or not YOU enjoy fruitless searches and timewasting, and know that buyers are people too!

[ESG]

I don't think anyone's disputing that sellers can be equally culpable. But, as a seller, I can tell you that if I e-mail/phone repeatedly with a prospective buyer, and they come and try my fairly represented horse, and then they tell me they're "just looking" or offer me 30% of my asking price, I'm going to be p!$$ed, and I'm going to call them a tire kicker. Yes, the seller has an obligation, IMO, to fairly represent the horse, but the buyer has an obligation, also IMO, not to waste the seller's time.

JMO.

[00pisces]

When I was looking at leases, I was also hesitant to jump into anything. I usually told the owners, "I have appointments to look at three more horses over the next few days. You can expect to hear from me on Wednesday." I felt that that was a fair way to go about it. It's not that I wasn't willing to lease that particular horse if I liked it, I just wanted to keep my commitments.

[ESG]

Now see, that's a tire kicker's argument, to me. If you find a horse you want to lease/buy, you do it, if you're serious. The whole "I have an obligation to someone whose horse I want to look at, that I've never met" is fluff. If you don't like the leaser's/seller's horse, just tell them! Don't even keep them hanging "until Wednesday" because you think you owe someone else a visit. A simple phone call to other leasers/sellers to the effect of, "I really appreciate you being willling to show me your horse, but I've found something else that I like" will suffice. Have some common sense and courtesy!

[EqTrainer]

You should already know before someone gets to your farm if they have the money to buy the horse. It's one of the first questions I ask. People are shy about talking about money and they shouldn't be. If someone won't answer me then they don't need to come and ride my horse.

Buying a horse is actually very little like anything else you will ever buy. This is not Walmart or a car dealership. It is a living animal. If more people understood this and respected it buying/selling horses would be a lot easier

Last year we had a thread on this, about people who lie in the name of getting a good deal. It was amazing how many people advocated being less than truthful to save a few bucks. Suddenly in the face of saving a few $$ it's ok for buyers to be dishonest or at the least, deceptive. The whole world would be a better place if people understood that the only place to act that way is at the craps table. IMO people will usually get what they give, no wonder so many people have bad experiences buying horses....

[SuperSTB]

If all you want to do in the next few months is look around, then IMHO you are a tire kicker.

When you are horse shopping with the intent to buy a horse now, you are, again IMHO, not a tire kicker.

I get what your saying... if the 'buyer' is just spending the next few months with no intention of buying, just looking, then that's a tire kicker. However if the 'buyer' spends month looking and hasn't found anything yet (but if she did she IS prepared to buy) than that I would not classify as a tire kicker.

It takes quite a bit of energy to sell a horse- I've got 2 people coming to look this weekend. This means show grooming, trailering to a show facility, and lots of time. And we're talking for a horse not listed for a heck of a lot on money either. As a seller- especially in this market- you're going to get a lot of people who will pass on the horse for sale. Some people like to "abate fustration" by erroneously labelling a buyer who passes as a tire kicker. Human nature

[Chaila]

The problem is that there is no way to have a "blue book" for horses. It's just too darned subjective. So, you need to go out and look at horses. It seems like the main criteria that everybody agrees on is that a good buyer is one who's willing to right a check for the right horse at the right price in pretty short order. Which I would be. The truly good, competitively priced horses seem to go very fast.

Buyers want a good deal. Sellers need to make $$. Sometimes they just need to stop bleeding $$ on board. Depending on where you are, every month your horse doesn't sell is roughly 1k in board. And buyers know that.

It's a pretty tricky relationship.

[threedogpack]

"Buying a horse is actually very little like anything else you will ever buy. This is not Walmart or a car dealership. It is a living animal. If more people understood this and respected it buying/selling horses would be a lot easier"

I disagree. Buying and selling is buying and selling. It's exchanging goods for money. How the seller approaches the buyer can make a sale or break it.

"You should already know before someone gets to your farm if they have the money to buy the horse."

Of course. But if the price is not set firmly (and many say OBO or "must sell"), then it is fair to ask if the seller will take less.

When I go to look at Ole' Nellie, she may not be what is advertised or it could be I was expecting something different. I never advocate lying or being dishonest. That doesn't mean that there cannot be discussion about the various options though. There have been times I would take much less for a home I preferred, and there have been times when I felt the horse did not suit and refused a sale.

[threedogpack]

"if the 'buyer' is just spending the next few months with no intention of buying, just looking, then that's a tire kicker"

how do you .know. this if they don't tell you? If I call you or email you about a horse you have advertised....and you ask me if I come out intending to buy, I am going to say "I dunno, lets see your horse(s) first". Does that make me a tire kicker or does that make me a person who won't commit without seeing the animal first?

edit:

and if you get short with me because I'm not going to commit before at least one visit....I just won't come and again....if I have the $$ in my pocket you take a chance on losing the sale.