Tex jumps his first course!

[pony89]

DJ, I know things have been going really well with Tex, and that is exciting! Working with this trainer has helped both of you tremendously, and I can see that both of you are really improving. I can totally understand why you would be feeling very defensive of him, when things really seem to be going well.

All trainers are only human. You know best if this is something he does as a standard way of operating, or if it is an idea he was just grabbing for since Tex was being so rude about escaping. If it is his standard method of training, I hope you would understand that it is not an effective or humane way to correct this problem. If it is a one time type situation, he may also be wishing that he had handled it another way. I hope something in your gut told you this was not the right way to correct Tex. You do have the right to set boundries with your trainer about how you and your horse are treated. You are not an up-down beginner who should listen without ever questioning; if something seems wrong, and I hope it did, you can talk to him about it. If this is a little out of the ordinary for your trainer, it doesn't necessarily mean that you need to leave, or that you don't appreciate him if you think he shouldn't have done it. Personally, I would have been very upset for myself that he had surprised me, you could have been injured, and deserved at least a warning that he was going to stand in the gate and try to fend him off. Even if he just stood there and waved his arms, Tex could have shied away.

You have a big responisibility to Tex, to keep him safe, and learn from your mistakes. It is ok to make mistakes, but you have to try to minimize them, and not make them twice. There is a whole post going on right now of mistakes and regrets that people have, decades later, about how they treated their horses, and how they allowed them to be treated. Everyone has stories like this, but horses are very generous and forgive easily, and we owe it to them to recognize mistakes and change how we act. You did not make a mistake, yet, but if you don't recognize that the trainer did make a mistake, and act to stand up for your horse, you will regret that at some point down the road.

I think you should talk to your trainer, tell him you didn't think that was a good way to handle the problem, and ask him to help you fix it outside of the show ring, and to get a strong rider who is experienced enough to really make the point and make staying in the ring seem like a really good idea.

You have really been showing a lot of maturity the last several months, and I have some sincere advice for you. I hope you have some people on here whose opinions you respect after a couple of years reading the board. Please, swallow any pride that you may have, and really listen when those people offer advice or opinions on your threads, even if it wasn't what you were looking for. I recently had a situation where I asked for advice, and the answers were not at all what I was expecting. In fact, some of them were downright unflattering, and painful to hear. But the people who offered them were people who I respected, and I had to ignore the bruised ego and see that they were right. I can truly say that I have more hope for my situation than I ever had before, and I could have thrown that away if I let myself get caught up in being offended. Ignore anyone else if you have to, but if you have a couple people on here who you respect, you will do yourself a huge service if you listen to what they have to say. Take it to pms if you have to in order to avoid the huge train wrecks, I am sure they would be glad to help if you are sincerely looking to improve as a rider and horsewoman.

[2ndyrgal]

farm implements

Are not always appropriate. HOWEVER.... at the risk of being flamed, flayed, etc, ad nauseum.... I once had a BIG Standarbred pacer that would decide during his workout that he was DONE, and would whip out the in gate and head back to the barn. Now, I'm very experienced, was uber strong, horse had a stout bit, overcheck, and two burr headpoles, stopping and or steering wasn't really an option, once he decided he was outta there. What was an option was five big guys with BROOMS, that everytime he looked sideways and moved toward the ingate (a very wide area about 50 feet) they hollered, waved brooms and whacked him upside the head, neck, side, rump, wherever.Not a green horse, and not a rookie driver. Notice I said brooms. Nice fluffy staw brooms. Not at a SHOW, not the handle, and not a green horse with a rookie. If that was your trainer's home base and he can't figure out a way to keep a STUDENTS horse in the ring without aiming the handle of a rake at it, this is what you do. Very politely, dismount, hand him your reins and say "Mr. Traniner sir, I'm just not getting it and Tex is taking horrible advantage of my inexperience, would you mind taking him around the course for me???" then see how he handles it. If he can't keep Tex in the ring either? Get a new trainer. Anyone teaching someone else, should more than be able to handle a minor disobedience. If he can't, or won't you have your answer. Had a skilled rider been schooling the same problem in a lesson (not at a show in front of God and everyone) and your trainer chose to bap him with a broom, wave a whip at him, whatever, then ok, we've all had those horses that needed a little "hello, we dont DO that" lesson. But not, never ever, with a green horse, and a green rider at a SHOW!! It's really not about the rake, it's about your trainer doing something that could have had a very, very bad result for you. DJ we're all thrilled that you are getting professional help, but the only thing professional seems to mean in your trainer's case is that you are paying for something that isn't, or at least doesn't seem to be, good value. And does Tex leave the ring on the flat, or only while jumping a course. Because if he does it on the flat too, then, back to square one and no jumping til you fix the problem. If you can't keep him in the ring, you have no real business sacrificing position and security over fences, while your loose in the tack, one of these days he's gonna get smart, feel it, and do the big sideways move and your gonna come off, nasty and hard. Fix the problems you have THEN go on to the next thing. Patience my dear, patience. (I never had any at your age either, so we all know how hard it is). I know you have to ride what you own, but in a perfect world, inexperienced riders learn to jump on experienced horses, and inexperienced horses are jumped first by experienced riders. Two greens lead to black and blue. (don't ask me how I know)

[~DressageJunkie~]

SBT, He could have just wanted to use the rake handle and wave it out to keep Tex in the arena and when Tex kept going for the exit gate he used it has a means to keep him from getting run over.

This is by no means how my trainer teacher his horses. I think it was just a matter of what he could do to fix the problem for the show and I am sure as soon as I can take Tex back to the barn for a lesson it will be something we will work on. (without a rake)

I will see about shortening my stirrups more, I need to poke more holes in them I guess, they already have 5 holes added.

The saddle is brand new so I haven't out grown it. I will see how my legs fits in it when I bring my stirrups up.

[Posting Trot]

One of the biggest problems with the "rake method" of training (beyond the fact that it's not a very good training method) is that the potential for REALLY BAD THINGS happening is very high. On the list of REALLY BAD THINGS are: 1) horse, surprised, props and rider pitches forward onto rake; 2) horse, surprised, shies half way across the ring and rider falls either onto rake or under horse's hooves; 3) horse, surprised, rears and falls over backward onto rider; 4) horse, surprised, bolts and crashes through arena fence or into jumps, in the process dumping rider.

And those are just the things that can go wrong at the time.

What the trainer did was unprofessional. He did something (I'm guessing out of anger) that was potentially very risky just because there's a hole in Tex's training--and your training as well--and he (the trainer) got PO'ed.

If this was a one-time, out-of-character action, I'd be inclined to give the trainer another chance. But if this is truly representative of his "training methods," I'd find another trainer and quickly.

JMHO and good luck.

[ddashaq]

Is it possible you bought a saddle that was too small/wrong shape? I kept winding up with the same issue (if my stirrups were at an appropriate jump length, my knees were in front of the flaps) and it turned out I was trying saddles that were just the wrong shape for me. I am not tall (5'5") but I do have fairly long legs for my height and I finally found a 17.5" with forward enough flaps that my knees stay where they should when my stirrups are up. It was never something I considered until I started jumping again. Just a thought!

[catknsn]

It's a normal ring with two area's that are open. The one side was closed off with standards and a pole. The gate area was not shut off because there were so many people coming in and out. At most barns around here they don't have gates during shows, it's just open.

I am amazed they have not had a lawsuit.

I've never been at a show where they didn't close the gate. Particularly during jumping rounds and gaming runs! There is so much potential for a horse to bolt out of the arena and nail a spectator if you don't do that.

I have been at a show where part of the arena was roped off to be an audience seating section and our Very Bad School Horse jumped his line and, instead of turning, rubbernecked sideways into the seating area with a screaming child atop. I had to get on VBSH and beat the crap out of his fat little tuckus with a jumping bat the next 2 classes. If I ever find that video, I will post it - it is really funny. I look a lot like a flapping waterfowl between my hands and my feet, but it did work. Still, we never took him to another show with that kind of set-up! Just a recipe for disaster.

[catknsn]

Another comment: DJ, have you asked the trainer to show the horse in a class?

Discerning whether or not the trainer has the cojones to get on this horse and make him jump around (and seeing if he can successfully do so) would be an excellent way of determining whether or not said trainer knows what he is doing. No trainer should ask a student to do something they can't successfully accomplish with the same horse. Don't you agree?

[2ndyrgal]

DJ, I thought the show was at the trainer's barn? And apparently, it IS the way he teaches. As you said, he has the same problem anywhere there is an open gate. If you can't stop and steer, you SHOULD NOT BE JUMPING OR SHOWING at any place you can't CONTROL your horse. You are WRONG. Your trainer is WRONG!! Your horse is the only smart one of the bunch. Get a trainer that knows what they are doing in a safe and fair manner. Tex seems like a nice horse, but watching the two of you, well, not him, just you really, is a bit like watching someone's little brother playing in the street. He might be lucky for a long time, but at some point there's gonna be a wreck,and it's going to be ugly. So if Tex had planted them and flipped over on you, and you were now going to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair with someone wiping your butt for you, would you still think the trainer was "just doing what he could at the time?" Oh, I forgot, you are young, which translates into it will never happen to ME, Tex wouldn't ever do that to ME. Ok, right DJ. I won't say who, but what I will say is a very experienced rider at levels none of us peons will ever reach if we live to be 100, when asked what happened to cause a life changing injury said, that the horse had a bad habit and the discipline used was not appropriate (as in if you want to kill yourself by being an asshat go ahead) and the result was catastrophic. But go right ahead and end up hurting yourself (which will surprise none of us) or get your horse hurt, which would be a damn shame, but no one's fault but your own. You are really lucky, you have a decent horse, supportive parents, and you are on the right track, you just have the WRONG driving instructor. Go get a competent trainer to help you, not some hack.

[PiedPiper]

I am amazed they have not had a lawsuit.

I've never been at a show where they didn't close the gate. Particularly during jumping rounds and gaming runs! There is so much potential for a horse to bolt out of the arena and nail a spectator if you don't do that.

I have been at a show where part of the arena was roped off to be an audience seating section and our Very Bad School Horse jumped his line and, instead of turning, rubbernecked sideways into the seating area with a screaming child atop. I had to get on VBSH and beat the crap out of his fat little tuckus with a jumping bat the next 2 classes. If I ever find that video, I will post it - it is really funny. I look a lot like a flapping waterfowl between my hands and my feet, but it did work. Still, we never took him to another show with that kind of set-up! Just a recipe for disaster.

This isn't uncommon in my area and for eventing most rings aren't even close to "fenced in". Why would one sue b/c they aren't closed in at a show?

[MandyVA]

This is why I never ride my young horse through a gate, and never dismount anywhere near a gate. I get off in a different random spot in the ring everytime I ride. One thing you should start doing immediately is at the end of your rides, dismount somewhere in the ring, untack Tex, and feed him something good right there in the ring.

[catknsn]

This isn't uncommon in my area and for eventing most rings aren't even close to "fenced in". Why would one sue b/c they aren't closed in at a show?

I've just never seen such a thing, in either the Midwest or the West coast...it immediately jumped out to me as a huge hazard and something you could argue the show management should have known could cause a wreck, given that equine nature is to head for an open gate (particularly after coming around that last barrel or jumping down a line, for example) and temporary losses of control/steering are common.

I don't event so I'm not familiar with how they are set up for spectators. Maybe there are disciplines where it's normal to have nothing between the spectators and horses traveling at a fast clip, I just haven't ever seen that in person.

[Gray Horse H/J]

I've just never seen such a thing, in either the Midwest or the West coast...

Actually, there are two big show facilities here in northern IL, Ledges and Lamplight, that do not have gates on the show rings. I agree though that it can be a hazard, for instance if a rider falls and a horse takes off riderless. That can get ugly.

[RojoPony]

I've just never seen such a thing, in either the Midwest or the West coast...it immediately jumped out to me as a huge hazard and something you could argue the show management should have known could cause a wreck, given that equine nature is to head for an open gate (particularly after coming around that last barrel or jumping down a line, for example) and temporary losses of control/steering are common.

I don't event so I'm not familiar with how they are set up for spectators. Maybe there are disciplines where it's normal to have nothing between the spectators and horses traveling at a fast clip, I just haven't ever seen that in person.

I live in the midwest and it's very common.

If it's a center gate @ a rodeo or jackpot it is usually left open to run in & out. A lot of rodeos will fine you if you don't

Most of the arena's where the h/j shows are held don't even have a gate there to shut

[gr8fulrider]

I've been to a few horse trials where the stadium jumping areas were just cordoned off with rope on stakes, with no gate at all-- just a gap between two stakes. Very nice courses, no problems, no one went careening out of them, whether it was the elementary riders jumping 18" at a casual trot or the novice people going 2'11" at a bolder pace. If you can't keep your horse in a ring without assistance it's not likely that you can steer it over a fence.

[katarine]

Any youth or ammie horse blowing through a gate while schooling, has ZERO business being shown by anyone but the trainer at any show- ESPECIALLY if the show is AT home. Hello? The horse KNOWS home, knows the drill, knows where to run for it.

Bad trainer, poor kid. Poor horse. But overall, really bad trainer.

[VTHokie]

This isn't uncommon in my area and for eventing most rings aren't even close to "fenced in". Why would one sue b/c they aren't closed in at a show?

Our local show series has a requirement that any venue holding a show must have a fenced in ring with gate for the pony ring where kids and most beginners ride. The horse ring is more of the anything goes type. Gate is open usually and at one show the horse "ring" is held in an open field.
So no I don't think you can sue unless it's in the rule book that there will be a gate, etc.

I agree that riders should be able to control their horse in any ring whether fenced in or not, and if you don't have control you're not ready to show.

[Chipngrace]

I'm not going to say anything about what the trainer did, that has been addressed for 6 pages.

DJ--- I've always liked you and followed your story.

[mayhew]

That's a great post, chip.

[catknsn]

Well, you learn something new every day. I've been part of show management for quite a few shows, over 20+ years, and we always had gate staff opening and closing the gate for each rider in an over fences class or a timed event. We never re-opened the gate until it was obvious, for example, that the horse had finished his run and the rider was in control. Sure they'd come out jogging sideways from the barrel runs, but at least they didn't blast out galloping.

Now that I think about it, I was at one show a long time ago where they did not close the gate. I remember this very well because a gamer came out and was not in control and the horse jumped the bed of a pickup. You don't forget a thing like that!

[ExJumper]

Well, you learn something new every day. I've been part of show management for quite a few shows, over 20+ years, and we always had gate staff opening and closing the gate for each rider in an over fences class or a timed event. We never re-opened the gate until it was obvious, for example, that the horse had finished his run and the rider was in control. Sure they'd come out jogging sideways from the barrel runs, but at least they didn't blast out galloping.

Now that I think about it, I was at one show a long time ago where they did not close the gate. I remember this very well because a gamer came out and was not in control and the horse jumped the bed of a pickup. You don't forget a thing like that!

I would imagine that you would need to close the gate for a barrel racer. For a hunter not so much. I have been at some shows where there is a gate that opens and closes. And I've been to some where there is no gate. At Lamplight and Ledges there is no gate to close. I've never seen it be a problem. And in the jumpers? Just turn away from the gate before you pull up.