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Tex jumps his first course!

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  • #41
    I know you were excited to post on here about Tex's first jump course at show
    Sounds like the horse was asked to do too much too soon. Don't be surprised after what he experienced in the ring things get worse before they get better. And if the trainer resorts again to VIOLENCE to "teach him a lesson" or to make him behave, I think we will be hearing from you again that Ted is just not "working out".

    What's that saying? Where violence begins, knowledge ends.

    I know you are young, but don't put your trainer/instructor on such a pedestal that elevates him to godlike status, where he can do no wrong and knows all.

    Think for yourself, always.
    *** 4 More Years ***
    *** 4 More Years ***

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    • #42
      Thats the thing, I (nor does anyone on here) don't know for sure if he was trying to hit him in the face, he could have ment for the shoulder. It's hard to aim with a 900lb horse running at you.
      But the trainer had no business whatsoever to be in the ring running herd for you. If you, the rider, cannot prevent such behavior, perhaps you shouldn't be in the ring in the first place. Sounds like you, the rider, needs more training.
      *** 4 More Years ***
      *** 4 More Years ***

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by ~DressageJunkie~ View Post
        Thats the thing, I (nor does anyone on here) don't know for sure if he was trying to hit him in the face, he could have ment for the shoulder. It's hard to aim with a 900lb horse running at you.

        You know DJ, Bo was 1300 to 1400 lbs when running intermediate...and I weighed 115 lbs soaking wet then. I understand fighting a horse, I understand a loss of control...whether human or horse. The one thing I do know for sure, have ridden for as long as I have, one thing is for sure: the TRAINER knew what he/she was up to. In front of a crowd. With internet access as a possibility (not a slam hon, but stay honest. It works out in the end, I promise you). If the trainer temporarily forgot this kind of stuff might hurt their reputation, by golly, what do you need them for? It's one thing to forget to tell you that in the event a judge waves coats you need a polo instead of your long-sleeved, it's something completely the heck else to beat the horse in the face with the handle of a rake in front of others. It leaves something to be said about you, you know? What kind of trainer YOU loonin' for hon? One with any route to the prize??? Kind of like not knowing the difference between going to the restroom in the trailer behind closed doors, or the porta-potty with the door shut...vs. out in front of everyone in the middle of the ring??? Does that "bring it home", dear? And you know I am NOT a person afraid to smack her horse when needed. I'm not trying to advocate abuse behind closed doors, it's just that when a person abuses in open fronts, don't be so shocked when people say, "My gosh, you abuser!!!"
        Last edited by Appassionato; Aug. 13, 2007, 12:51 AM.
        RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
        5/5/84-7/12/08

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by ~DressageJunkie~ View Post
          Thats the thing, I (nor does anyone on here) don't know for sure if he was trying to hit him in the face, he could have ment for the shoulder. It's hard to aim with a 900lb horse running at you.
          So was your trainer standing at the gate with the rake pointed at the horse like a sword or was he standing at the gate with the rake straight across the gate opening as a barrier?
          Any way you look at this it was extremely dangerous for your horse and for you. Tex could have gotten caught up with the rake and injured an eye, etc.

          What do your parents think about what happened? Let them read these posts and help you make the right decision about your trainer. No one here is trying to attack you, we understand that it was trainer that did this and not you. A better way of handling it would have been for your trainer to get on the horse and ride him around a course, not risk your safety.

          Whether you believe this is abuse or not, if your goals involve riding in hunter shows you need to have a trainer that understands rules, because any other show would have disqualified you or had you thrown out altogether.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by ~DressageJunkie~ View Post
            Jeez, this is the reason I deleted this thread. I don't want my trainer to be bashed.

            You should worry more about Tex being bashed. Obviously your trainer can take care of himself--he appears to be armed.


            Seriously, it's understandable that you're devoted to your trainer. Lots of us were equally supportive of the trainers we had early in our riding careers when we only had limited experience and nothing better to compare them to. Some of us were lucky and got good ones right from the start. But there are much safer, more effective ways of dealing with Tex running out of the ring. Just because you trust your trainer doesn't mean he was right.

            One thing's for sure, from now on any time Tex comes too close to your trainer, he's going to turn tail and it's likely you're going to end up on your backside in the dirt.

            I like logical people---they provide a nice contrast to the real world.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by ~DressageJunkie~ View Post
              Thats the thing, I (nor does anyone on here) don't know for sure if he was trying to hit him in the face, he could have ment for the shoulder. It's hard to aim with a 900lb horse running at you.
              Which is exactly why it should not be done.
              he could have meant for the shoulder and got Tex' face, sure... or he could have hit his eye and knocked that out,... or hit you and caused you to fall off the horse,... BECAUSE it's hard to aim with a 900# horse running at you, you do not do it.
              Well besides the fact that hitting a horse in the face or anywhere while its being ridden in the ring by another person really isn't kosher.
              Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

              http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

              Comment


              • #47
                This is disappointing to hear... I hope, if anything, you learn the lesson that many of us have learned (often in difficult situations, just like this): the only right answer is to put your horse and his welfare first, and not to associate with anyone who thinks or acts otherwise, even for a second.

                Good luck.
                Fun equestrian t-shirts designed by a rider like you:
                http://skreened.com/laughinglion

                Comment


                • #48
                  I actually witnessed a similar incident at a schooling show in the area a few years back, except that it wasn't a jumping class and the object was a broom, not a rake.

                  The child on the horse was very young and timid. Horse was a larger fellow, something of a bully to his young rider, though I got the feeling he was more amused by his own antics than actually mean-spirited. He wasn't bad when the gate was closed and the class was in process, choosing mostly to follow the other horses, but when it was open (either while waiting for everyone to enter at the beginning of the class or when everyone was leaving at the end) he darted out. Mostly it was a subtle "I'm trotting in the ring, now I'm trotting out of the ring" slip out of the gate as they passed. Child seemed to feel helpless against this despite a slight display of inside-rein-pulling, and horse eventually started drifting gateward in the lineup.

                  Trainer of small child got the bright idea to get the broom out of the trailer dressing room and threaten the horse with it the next time he passed. She did succeed in frightening the horse, causing horse to shy and rider to squeal. The situation got out of control somehow and horse bolted, though I'm not positive of the exact process, as the entire thing was over in a matter of seconds. In any case, the result was a much stronger smack with less precision than intended. Horse suffered permanent damage to the eye (loss of sight) and some nerve damage to his face on that side. Rider fell and I believe suffered only bruises, but as far as I know hasn't ridden since - I guess the trauma was worse than the injuries. Trainer can still be seen at some circuits, though of course there's talk.

                  I think in the majority of cases, stuff like this more often results in mess than injury. I do think we need to remember that sometimes things get out of hand quickly with these animals, and injury is always a risk.

                  Yes, these are large animals, but they can be fragile in their own way. A close (former) friend of mine lost her temper with one of my stallions several years ago. She punched him in the face. She was a larger gal, but he's a massive 1400-pound tank, and still it's stuck with him. Aside from the emotional trauma, it's left permanent damage to the eye on that side and caused damage to his mouth such that he can no longer carry a bit without pain. Obviously, this person is no longer around my horses, but years later, this guy still suffers.

                  I think we forget the power we have. Or maybe sometimes we're just intimidated enough to abuse it.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Andalucian View Post
                    I actually witnessed a similar incident at a schooling show in the area a few years back, except that it wasn't a jumping class and the object was a broom, not a rake.

                    The child on the horse was very young and timid. Horse was a larger fellow, something of a bully to his young rider, though I got the feeling he was more amused by his own antics than actually mean-spirited. He wasn't bad when the gate was closed and the class was in process, choosing mostly to follow the other horses, but when it was open (either while waiting for everyone to enter at the beginning of the class or when everyone was leaving at the end) he darted out. Mostly it was a subtle "I'm trotting in the ring, now I'm trotting out of the ring" slip out of the gate as they passed. Child seemed to feel helpless against this despite a slight display of inside-rein-pulling, and horse eventually started drifting gateward in the lineup.

                    Trainer of small child got the bright idea to get the broom out of the trailer dressing room and threaten the horse with it the next time he passed. She did succeed in frightening the horse, causing horse to shy and rider to squeal. The situation got out of control somehow and horse bolted, though I'm not positive of the exact process, as the entire thing was over in a matter of seconds. In any case, the result was a much stronger smack with less precision than intended. Horse suffered permanent damage to the eye (loss of sight) and some nerve damage to his face on that side. Rider fell and I believe suffered only bruises, but as far as I know hasn't ridden since - I guess the trauma was worse than the injuries. Trainer can still be seen at some circuits, though of course there's talk.

                    I think in the majority of cases, stuff like this more often results in mess than injury. I do think we need to remember that sometimes things get out of hand quickly with these animals, and injury is always a risk.

                    Yes, these are large animals, but they can be fragile in their own way. A close (former) friend of mine lost her temper with one of my stallions several years ago. She punched him in the face. She was a larger gal, but he's a massive 1400-pound tank, and still it's stuck with him. Aside from the emotional trauma, it's left permanent damage to the eye on that side and caused damage to his mouth such that he can no longer carry a bit without pain. Obviously, this person is no longer around my horses, but years later, this guy still suffers.

                    I think we forget the power we have. Or maybe sometimes we're just intimidated enough to abuse it.
                    Amen! There's a coming-to-Jesus-meeting and then there is straight-up-abuse. You have to try to deternmine the difference. In this case it's easy: What's legal in MOST show circuits for a trainer to do in order to help a student with a naughty horse? Post it as such in other forums, DJ. For a horse avoidng X when I ask for X, what is appropriate as a response from the trainer during shows? Hey, want to continue with po-dunk, or run with big boys? Better find out what the big boys want NOW!!!
                    RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
                    5/5/84-7/12/08

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      I think a dressage whip would have worked better.... as the rider if my horse tried that, I would have put the reins in one hand and given him a few good whacks. Not with a broom handle or rake but.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        dj-- you have a goodhorse and you know what happened to your other horse becuase you couldnt handle her, if this trianer continues to trian your horse in the same manner then you will have two pita horses you cant handle

                        abusive teqnics arnt good and a trianer shouldnt ut you and the horse up for a show if you not ready and offcourse show are what we all aim for but you have a diffrence as with some
                        you are green and your horse is green so education is so so needed for both you to learn
                        the correct manner and format and how to correct a horse when it makes a mistake

                        a hitting him in the head or whatever happended isnt going to teach him anything but
                        RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRunnnnnnnnnnn and RRRRRRRRRRRRRRear

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by VTHokie View Post
                          So was your trainer standing at the gate with the rake pointed at the horse like a sword or was he standing at the gate with the rake straight across the gate opening as a barrier?
                          Kind of a big difference there, I agree. A bit of a "crowbar separation," if you will.

                          Anyway, if his excuse for hitting him in the face is that it's hard to aim at 900#s coming right for you, what was to prevent him from hitting you in the face.

                          Look, DJ, everyone makes mistakes. I don't think any of us are telling you to run away from your trainer kicking and screaming. Assuming that this was an unusual incident and that it was way out of character, I'll give the trainer the benefit of the doubt that maybe he didn't get any sleep, he lost a client that morning to the BNT down the road, the horses wouldn't load, he had a really bad day, all his other students sucked, and Tex was being a turd. Maybe he was at his breaking point and Tex just pushed him over the edge. Not excusable, but certainly understandable.

                          (Although the wisdom in going from ground rails at home to 2' verticals at a horse show does elude me at the moment.)

                          Your trainer can still have done a bad thing without being a bad person. He can have made a mistake in judgment. What we find hard to believe is that you are defending him so stalwartly when it is so glaringly obvious that regardless of what else he has done for you, that this incident, that this action was totally incorrect.

                          Holding a lunge whip or a broom across an open in gate to simulate a cross bar is one thing. Something that my trainer did frequently (although she usually formed a human chain with my other barn buddies). Actually hitting a horse in the face, or allowing a horse to be hit in the face is a huge difference.

                          Please can you describe to me how it happened? As in, was Tex's disobedience forward or reverse directed. My personal experience is with a horse who liked to go backwards when she was nervous. If we had enough forward momentum, she wouldn't do anything. However, when we were going slowly she would hitch her ass to the side and consider halting and then backing. Or I would just lose her back end like a car fishtailing on ice. Like if we were walking during a hunter hack class or standing in line near the gate. So if she got smacked anywhere it was behind the girth to urge her forward. Was Tex doing something like this, or was he darting out head first as you passed the gate?

                          Please elaborate and maybe we can turn this thread around and you can actually learn something from it, rather that it turning into a train wreck like in the old days.

                          We've grown to like you, kid, but this staunch support of your trainer, who clearly made an error in judgment, isn't like you. You've learned to much and I know that if you step back you can see that this is the case.
                          Originally posted by tidy rabbit
                          Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by ~DressageJunkie~ View Post
                            I still trust him and I don't seen anything he did wrong.
                            You have just defined your priorities and level of horsemanship with this statement. I had developed a reasonable amount of respect for you when you realized the Sheza was not working out and it was time to try something different, and started making good progress with Tex. This statement, however, has pretty much erased the respect you have earned with me. Your trainer was wrong, and I hope that you are able to eventually recognize that.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I didnt see the original post, but ive felt compelled to reply based on the responses.

                              DJ- You may not see anything wrong with it now but maybe you will when someone is trying to rake an isle or cobweb the barn and your horse is in his stall having a heart attack because now he is deathly afraid of a rake or broom.

                              Also if your horse is new to Jumping how do you think he feels now that he was beat ( In the head !! ) while trying his heart out for you ??

                              And for you to use the " Tex ran into it he did not hit him with it" is laughable IMO.

                              Oh and im not bashing your trainer, This is soley directed to you and the fact that you " Dont see anything wrong with it "
                              Ride it like you stole it....ohhh sh*t

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Appassionato View Post
                                It leaves something to be said about you, you know? What kind of trainer YOU loonin' for hon? One with any route to the prize??? Kind of like not knowing the difference between going to the restroom in the trailer behind closed doors, or the porta-potty with the door shut...vs. out in front of everyone in the middle of the ring???
                                Trainer definitely showed his ass, didn't he?

                                DJ, were your parents there? Because if you were my daughter, your trainer would have been minus one client right after you got out of the ring. And he'd be "wearing" a rake in an interesting place.

                                After your horse ran out the first time, the appropriate thing would have been for your trainer to work with you on a strategy to keep him in the ring (i.e., show you how to anticipate Tex's actions and ride him more effectively) or excuse you from your next class and work on it at home. What your trainer did was bad horsemanship, and it was also very dangerous for you and your horse.

                                When your horse allows you to get on his back and tell him where to go, he's trusting you to keep him safe. Tex didn't run out because he was trying to make you mad. He did it because he's a green horse, he was afraid and he doesn't trust you completely. And instead of working with you to be a better, more confident rider so you can build your horse's trust, your trainer ambushed you both and hit Tex in the face. I hope you'll think about this some more and understand why what your trainer did was completely and totally wrong.
                                __________________________
                                "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                                the best day in ten years,
                                you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #56
                                  Lets see if I can clear some things up here.

                                  VTHokie- No, he wasn't standing there using the rake as a "sword". The rake was vertical and he just let Tex run into it. I am not even sure if he "hit" him in the face, it could have been the neck.

                                  ExJumper, he just ran straight out of the gate in my first round with no warning.

                                  I don't think there was much I could have done to keep him in by using an outside leg and the reins. He has done this at every show and he even does this at home and once at my lesson. No matter what I do I can't keep him from running out, he ignores my leg (or crop) and sticks his nose out to avoid the bit.

                                  He isn't scared of rakes now or exits gates as he went by them every other round.

                                  I still think he did what he needed to do, sure I would have rather him used a crop or something, but he was putting his body in front of a 900lb horse and needed something bigger.

                                  I think it's sad for those who lost all respect for me and those who now think "Abuse" with all my posts but thats your opinions.

                                  For anyone who wants to see pictures, here is the full album. My pictures are on page 7 I think.

                                  http://good-times.webshots.com/album...ost=good-times
                                  -Lindsey

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by ~DressageJunkie~ View Post
                                    Lets see if I can clear some things up here.

                                    I don't think there was much I could have done to keep him in by using an outside leg and the reins. He has done this at every show and he even does this at home and once at my lesson. No matter what I do I can't keep him from running out, he ignores my leg (or crop) and sticks his nose out to avoid the bit.
                                    For anyone who wants to see pictures, here is the full album. My pictures are on page 7 I think.

                                    http://good-times.webshots.com/album...ost=good-times
                                    Here is where I have the problem, if he does this at home, why would you take him to a show?? Fix the issue at home first. Home is supposed to be the place he is most comfortable. The way your trainer chose to try and teach this horse not to run out of the ring is wrong and not effective.
                                    If you are not strong enough to fix the problem, then someone else needs to school him and then help you through it. But taking a horse who has an issue away to a show when hes never done a course is asking for a disaster. This horse is telling you he is not ready and he is upset about something.
                                    I had a pony who would try to run out the door on me.. the first couple times she succeeded, after that I got after her. Yes she was a pony but she was strong as hell with a short well muscled neck. And I did not have the option of a crop as she had been abused.. i worked with her patiently and was always on my gaurd. She stopped doing it to me, but with anyone else she would try occasioanlly if she thought she could get away with it.. it was a bratty pony issue.

                                    I think this is a training issue with Tex. it sounds like he is being pushed too fast too soon.. go back to the basics, get him working well and relaxing then start work over poles again..He clearly is not comfortable with the work being asked of him and not ready to be in the show ring.
                                    Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
                                    Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
                                    New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      DJ, I think the pictures look good. Your position looks stable, and the height of the fences appropriate for the level that you, and espeically Tex, are at right now.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        DJ, this right here:

                                        No matter what I do I can't keep him from running out, he ignores my leg (or crop) and sticks his nose out to avoid the bit.
                                        Is what you need to be working on right now, not going to more shows and jumping courses. He's not just sticking his nose out, he's popping that outside shoulder and diving out of the ring. Once that shoulder pops, there's not much you can do at that point. The key is to anticipate it and prevent it from happening. That takes timing, and lots and lots of repetition. A rake in the head or neck might have stopped him that time, but he's pretty smart - he'll just do it again when the guy with the rake isn't standing there.

                                        I've been having the same issue in my dressage lessons - the horses all seem to ignore all my attempts at inside leg-outside rein and drift off the rail. What I've learned is you can't drop the outside rein contact when they want to make that move. Your instincts are telling you to yank on the inside rein and pull him around, but what happens is you've given away the outside to Tex, and now he's got that shoulder in play and he's going to bully through anything you've got. Keep him on the aids and between your reins, and you have a better shot at steering.

                                        Your trainer should be working with you on this - if you're planning on jumping more courses, you need control, all the time.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          I used to tell my husband, who was dealing with a horse who would scoot out in whatever direction he chose and ignore the aids, that it didn't really matter all that much where the horse's head was--it was the shoulder that the horse was going to follow. He had to, paradoxically, keep a little bit of an outside bend to keep the horse in the ring, until they started to work together better. And that outside bend had to start well before they got to the scooting out places. It wasn't pretty, but it kept them in the ring so that they could work on the problem.

                                          I'm no trainer or instructor. This is just a thought of a different way to think about where his body is and where it might end up!

                                          Comment

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