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What we need now from the Natural Horsemanship Gurus

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  • What we need now from the Natural Horsemanship Gurus

    Is a set of clinics, exhibitions, miracles, whathaveyou devoted to rehabbing the "overdone" NH horse.

    A poster on a GaWaNi Pony Boy (Kevin from 'Jersey) thread mentioned that PP chose only unhandled horses for a demo.

    Lovely, but A) how many of us need help with the truly feral horse, and B) what so many people in this kind of horse training market need is a way to undo some of the damage done.

    Have you guys ever seen an NH guru work on this problem in a formal and named way?

    It would be really interesting to me if this group started acknowledging the new problems it had created, and also cleaning that mess up as a way to maintain value for their "product."
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

  • #2
    Like a NH De-Programming Clinic? Love it!

    I might have a higher opinion of some of those clinicians if they were able to un-do the damage that their starry-eyed followers have done to their own horses.

    Wait. . .no I wouldn't.
    Please copy and paste this to your signature if you know someone, or have been affected by someone who needs a smack upside the head. Lets raise awareness.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, I once knew a trainer who acquired NH-fried horses and reprogrammed them. She had a strong background in both traditional dressage/eventing training and NH. And by "strong background" I mean she'd actually done working student stuff and training apprenticeships in NH and traditional disciplines, not that she'd just watched a couple videos and hung out a shingle.

      Unfortunately, it was not a process that anyone at a clinic or exhibition would want to watch. It meant backing up to the very beginning of the training process. It took days, sometimes months. It sometimes required--gasp!--drawing on other training methods besides NH. And, God forbid, she actually expected these horses to do a proper JOB after rehab. Like dressage, or eventing, or truly bombproof trail riding.

      In other words, it was just like restarting any other kind of screwed up horse. It's not flashy or instant and it's not formulaic, and that's the whole NH marketing gig in a nutshell.

      Besides, to have a market for fix-it clinics, the NH fans would have to be convinced that there's a problem in the first place. I know many a middle-aged Parelli-ite who is *genuinely happy* with an unrideable horse.
      Head Geek at The Saddle Geek Blog http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Nothing worse than an overly-NH'd horse.

        What I don't get is why don't the NH-ers ever GET ON THE HORSE?!?

        As the previous posters said, can't imagine any of the big NH gurus would tackle de-programming because it would highlight the fact that there is in fact a flaw in the system. But heck if one of them did take it on.... they'd probably make a boatload detoxing NH'd horses and their kool-aid drinking owners.
        We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mvp View Post
          Lovely, but A) how many of us need help with the truly feral horse . . ..
          Good point! I guess if I ever decide to go saddle up one of our marsh tackies, I'll rent the DVD first.

          I wonder about my horse sometimes. I wouldn't call him damaged in any way, but he does have this one strange habit. When he and I are taking a lesson, and working in a circle around my instructor, he has an odd habit, once we halt, of always wanting to turn and face her.
          I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
            When he and I are taking a lesson, and working in a circle around my instructor, he has an odd habit, once we halt, of always wanting to turn and face her.
            oh, i hate that! i had a NH-type tell me that it was CORRECT for a horse to turn in to you (ie, on a lunge) so that the horse can SEE YOU. ummm..... last i checked, a horse's eyes were on the SIDE of his head for a reason, right?
            Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
            www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Timex View Post
              oh, i hate that! i had a NH-type tell me that it was CORRECT for a horse to turn in to you (ie, on a lunge) so that the horse can SEE YOU. ummm..... last i checked, a horse's eyes were on the SIDE of his head for a reason, right?
              We've had just that problem with over half of our horses in for training. Owners are so proud that they are "1st and 2nd level Parelli".

              Also they have a habit of following directly behind you, instead of next to you. Very dangerous, and I HATE it! Takes a while to break them of it too.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                Also they have a habit of following directly behind you, instead of next to you. Very dangerous, and I HATE it! Takes a while to break them of it too.
                Oooh, Houdini does that too! I'd forgotten to mention it.

                Er, how'd you go about breaking him of it? I'd sort of just resigned myself to having him behind me. Do you think it's dangerous?

                At first, I worried that he might get spooked and run me over, but now I don't know. He stays pretty far back, and the one time something did spook him he managed to miss me.

                But all the same, it does feel weird slouching in from the pasture with my horse trailing along a lead rope's length behind me.
                I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
                  Oooh, Houdini does that too! I'd forgotten to mention it.

                  Er, how'd you go about breaking him of it? I'd sort of just resigned myself to having him behind me. Do you think it's dangerous?

                  At first, I worried that he might get spooked and run me over, but now I don't know. He stays pretty far back, and the one time something did spook him he managed to miss me.

                  But all the same, it does feel weird slouching in from the pasture with my horse trailing along a lead rope's length behind me.
                  Yes, it can be dangerous, let me tell you how. My horse was "cowboy" trained to lead trailing along behind. I was working on him leading at my shoulder (since I wanted him to do showmanship anyway), but one day I went out in the field and got him, snapped on the lead, and let him mosey on along behind me cowboy style. Well, something spooked him, he ran right into me, stepping on the back of my shoe (note to self, always wear boots from now on), and stopped, which in effect nailed that leg/foot to the ground (and bruised my achilles tendon also). So, I made a shooing motion at him still behind me to get him to back up and off my shoe - which he did at about Mach 10, which spun me around like a top at the end of the lead rope, and pulled me to the ground and dragged me for about 5 feet until the thinking side of my brain told my idiot hand to let go of the rope.

                  No more lollygagging along behind me on a lead for any horse after that scene.
                  There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be. - Andy Adams

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MunchkinsMom View Post
                    No more lollygagging along behind me on a lead for any horse[.]
                    OK. So how'd you fix it?
                    I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I read Lynn Palm's book "Longevity Training". Basically taught him to lead at my shoulder, which means you start from a standstill with the horse at your shoulder, and cluck and walk. If they start to hang back, stick your leading arm out straight, so that you bump his head with the halter to move forward/keep up with you. If that fails to keep him where he belongs, get a buggy whip (I used my lunge whip) in your left hand, and reaching behind you with it, give him a bit of a tap on the rump with it. It didn't take long to re-train him to lead where I wanted him to be.
                      There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be. - Andy Adams

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mvp View Post

                        A poster on a GaWaNi Pony Boy (Kevin from 'Jersey) thread mentioned that PP chose only unhandled horses for a demo.
                        I thought they said it was Monty, not PP if I recall...
                        "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MunchkinsMom View Post
                          I read Lynn Palm's book "Longevity Training". Basically taught him to lead at my shoulder, which means you start from a standstill with the horse at your shoulder, and cluck and walk. If they start to hang back, stick your leading arm out straight, so that you bump his head with the halter to move forward/keep up with you. If that fails to keep him where he belongs, get a buggy whip (I used my lunge whip) in your left hand, and reaching behind you with it, give him a bit of a tap on the rump with it. It didn't take long to re-train him to lead where I wanted him to be.
                          Thanks, I'll give it a try.

                          When I first got him, I'd cluck and tug on the lead rope to bring him up - but then he seemed to think I meant "forge ahead of me." So I'd turn him around me and start again.

                          Lag, cluck, tug, forge, turn. It's a ten acre pasture. I started getting dizzy and gave up.

                          I suppose the reason for holding the arm out straight is to prevent any misunderstanding about forging ahead?

                          ETA: Hope we're not hijacking mvp. It really is a good idea to have a support group thread for the owners of horses recovering from NH.
                          I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ah, well, if the horse then forges ahead, quickly turn and face him, firm "whoa", back up a few brisk steps, firm "whoa", and then start again. The arm straight out is to give him a tug forward, he could still do the "do-si-do" around you with your arm straight out. I usually followed that manuever with a quiet "shall we try this again?" muttered under my breath. Or you can take the buggy whip and make a barrier in front of the horse if they start to get ahead of you.
                            There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be. - Andy Adams

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Thanks for the replies

                              Yes, I don't know which Guru wanted the virgin horses only, but it seemed like "cheating" to me-- given the current state of affairs.

                              Yes, on a different point, a horse walking directly behind me skeeves me out. Ants crawling on the inside of my skin. Someone has to move so that I *can see* the small-brained 1,000-pounder who is perilously close to my big head and little body.

                              Finally, I think there could be good and "moral" money in this. The NH thing goes wrong when peeps who have no business being trainers are taught to think they can do so without an ability to judge the horse's reaction.

                              As far as I can tell, the NH clinicians dig themselves a lucrative hole: They try to systematize the give-and-take that goes in to having a conversation with a horse. They fail. They praise the philosophy and products, but (somewhat correctly) blaming buyers for misapplying them. They try again, selling more stuff.

                              My point is that perhaps there is now a critical mass of Parelli-ites just about ready to jump ship. It's precisely *because* the training by video-tape effort has failed that they are ready for something better.

                              No, this slow training would be boring to watch. But it would be fantastically fun to do for the owner. When I have introduced complete noobs to my horse, I have "narrated" the conversation that goes on between me and him. Think of a sportscaster giving the play-by-play for a tennis match. They want in on that kind of communication.
                              The armchair saddler
                              Politically Pro-Cat

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                what so many people in this kind of horse training market need is a way to undo some of the damage done.
                                I believe the person to put in charge of this venture would be John Lyons!

                                I bought John's "Symposium" tapes years ago and watched each tape a gazillion times before I tried his moves on my TB mare (and they worked). On that tape he said that you can untrain your horse anytime and retrain it to do something else.... So, theoretically, if you stop bombarding a horse with sensory stuff like waving carrot sticks in its face and vibrating lunge lines you should be able to teach it to act like a "normal" horse!

                                I never used PP's methods to train my horse but I bet she would have responded properly to his cues!

                                I'm sorry but I was on a PP message board for a while. I had to leave it because all people talked about were "training" their horses but no one seemed to actually ride them.... I just thought the whole thing was just too queer.
                                "Don't blame Hogg or the other teens. The adults are supposed to know better. If only we could find any." ~Tom Nichols, professor of national security affairs at the Naval War College~

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Yes, I don't know which Guru wanted the virgin horses only, but it seemed like "cheating" to me-- given the current state of affairs.
                                  well, it's probably because the "methods" work really well with untrained horses. I don't really understand WHAT happened with NH to put into it's current bizarre state, but let me tell you, if you spend a week or three (maximum) working an unbroke horse with basic NH ideas, then MOVE ON to real training, you can end up with a nice, well-mannered horse.

                                  I think a lot of people just like playing with their horses, are afraid? to ride them, and the NH stuff gives them things to do and reasons to do them instead of riding.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by MunchkinsMom View Post
                                    I read Lynn Palm's book "Longevity Training". Basically taught him to lead at my shoulder, which means you start from a standstill with the horse at your shoulder, and cluck and walk. If they start to hang back, stick your leading arm out straight, so that you bump his head with the halter to move forward/keep up with you. If that fails to keep him where he belongs, get a buggy whip (I used my lunge whip) in your left hand, and reaching behind you with it, give him a bit of a tap on the rump with it. It didn't take long to re-train him to lead where I wanted him to be.
                                    Exactly what i do! 16 nationally ranked or winners at showmanship(coach/trainer) i think I know what it takes if i do say so - beside Lynn is the best!
                                    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by wendy View Post
                                      well, it's probably because the "methods" work really well with untrained horses. I don't really understand WHAT happened with NH to put into it's current bizarre state, but let me tell you, if you spend a week or three (maximum) working an unbroke horse with basic NH ideas, then MOVE ON to real training, you can end up with a nice, well-mannered horse.
                                      I agree. I have had one of my geldings since he was a long yearling and we worked on some of the PP ground work when he was too young to ride. As a result he has excellent ground manners, BUT the results were not any better than if I had done the same amount of showmanship training. As soon as he was old enough to ride, i ditched the NH stuff and used traditional methods to get him going.

                                      I don't know why the general population of NHers don't ride, however I do know that the small cluster of them at my last barn did not ride because of some mystical "bond" that they had established on the ground. They were afraid that riding would damage the bond and all would be lost. With the exception of one, they were also middle aged, beginner riders whose actual riding skills were quite limited.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Speaking from experience, I suspect the reason the "horse whisperer" types never get to riding is because their "gurus" aren't capable of teaching the next level.

                                        I got a lot of education from one horse whisperer guru (he was pretty much an unknown .... except for the people he ripped off for steel buildings that never, ever materialized... but that's another story) He was able to impart some remarkable, insightful knowledge (before he got greedy; see above ). However, it became clear as time passed that, as we diligent dedicated students progressed, he was running out of knowledge ... but he would never, ever admit it. Nooo, instead we were never "ready" to ride, and if we timorously insisted that "just maybe, it was TIME, already" he became resentful... or was it, DEFENSIVE?? Once he left the scene & we were left to our own devices, amazingly we mere mortals WERE ready to ride our MORE than ready horses.

                                        This is what I suspect is happening to a lot of people following those [heavily-marketed] gurus.

                                        But then, there are the other ones who go through the motions overandoverandover but never attain the intellectual/empathic progess needed to move the horse, but even MORE themselves, to the point of being safe on top of their 1000 pound+ animals. Instead, they have created terribly resentful, frustrated horses who'd happily trample their ever-loving humans (were it not for the graciousness of equine nature).

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